Pneumatic safety issues

[Jeroenl]

@ mr_turbulence
Im not a native english speaker, but doesn't it mean separately tested? So not as a whole system but each component a new test?

[kane]

Independently is meant as in by a 3rd party.

Strictly speaking, those using components in a full pressure system such as a 5404 Burket valve should either have devices fitted to limit the pressure of the system or provide test documentation proving otherwise. For example a pressure relief device set to 50 bar would be suitable, alternatively use a regulator to reduce the pressure.

Valves rated for full pressure are available but I believe the 5404 is used due to the high flow rate capability coupled with the high pressure rating.

[maddox10]

Not a fan of those hold down to vent dumps...

Shouldn't be a problem.
After the fight the arena marshal dumps all the gas.
Robot retrieved, owner removes bottle, tries to get it refilled asap-to have a very cold bottle is a boon for the decanting filling methode-.
Bottle gets remounted in the machine, and only opened during link up.

Also Kane can you make sense of this;

9.7.1 Custom Components
Custom made components, or parts operating above the suppliers maximum working pressure, must be
Independently tested and certified at 120% of the maximum system pressure available at that point.

Key word being independently as Mario and Team Mute have said they test there equipment... I don't blame them if they have the gear to do so them self.... But to comply with the rules wouldn't they need a 3rd party to certify there gear? Not just them... But anyone running a compressed gas system be it air or co2, or can we all say we've tested our gear to 120% and give our self a certificate

Ah Dave, according to me, it's not that old a rule. The independent part of it at least.
On the other hand, my certification expired early 2010, and every hi pressure pneumatic system I distributed since then (al 6)under the PID prototype agreement was independently tested at a steam generator building plant. The original paperwork is still at that factory, and only the digital variants are in my possession.

On the other hand, how independent is a tester? (I worked at that steam generator production plant 12 years ago, that is why I had that certificate, and still know the right people there)
Also, the PID rules are rather funny in some respects.
I can perfectly test Gasbots or Xtremes pneumatics ;write up a prototype document, and put my own name on the line in case the materials fail and cause injury. And they can do exactly the same for my stuff. Perfectly legal, with the only caveat that we personaly are responsible if it goes wrong, unless we can prove it was a failure of the end-user.
And that is simple enough. Just one sentance in the test report.

Only to be tested/used in a controlled enviroment, as stipulated by theFRA Arena Rules.

[Mouldy]

Have you got one of those documents you can scan and show us as a template?

Mario, according to me i know what a dump valve does...and how to fill a bottle...ive done it a couple of times...In that heavyweight i made that won the uk champs, back in 2006, when i was 17?.. im 23 now and ive done more since. I dont need a lecture.

The reason i dont like the push buttons is due to the fact you have to hold them down while the gas runs out... slows down an arena marshalls job between fights, just personal opinion.

You seem to take things very personal.

[maddox10]

Independently is meant as in by a 3rd party.

That is what I make of that phraze.
On the other hand, when changed the rules to that exact wording?
And, it's only recently people start to worry about it. Strange I have to admit.

Strictly speaking, those using components in a full pressure system such as a 5404 Burket valve should either have devices fitted to limit the pressure of the system or provide test documentation proving otherwise. For example a pressure relief device set to 50 bar would be suitable, alternatively use a regulator to reduce the pressure.

Funny, Project Two suffered that problem during an event. The PRV started to vent pressure when a sun heated pump-filled bottle was opened. meaning the pressure was over the set limit. After losing 100 gram of CO2 the system was a tad chilled, and the pressure was below the treshold. Meaning it will freak out people opening a fresh bottle because the PRV starts to vent.
POP-POPPOPPOP... Pop.......pop.......po..p

Valves rated for full pressure are available but I believe the 5404 is used due to the high flow rate capability coupled with the high pressure rating.

Actualy it's a tad different.
The Burkert 5404 is used by a lot of us, because it's the only affordable , commercialy available valve that can do the job. Albeit for dependability, overvolting a 24V coil.

We use BURKERTS which are rated to 50bar aswell, were they tested and certified to handle the higher pressure ?

The Burkert 5404 is rated at 50 bar for reliable duty cycles. The real pressure rating goes way above that.

Bigger Brother and Dantomkia were among the first machines using that valve, way back during the BBC series, and Spitfire in Battlebots.
To get accepted by the more rigorous Battlebots pneumatic rules, Mike Lambert had the Burkert 5404 pressure tested. The results were simple. The body can take pressures over 1500 psi without failing. The 24V soleno¯d on the other hand isn't reliable over 750 psi @ 24V. Meaning it sometimes won't open the valve. (shit, a flip that didn't go off)
The solution to that is to overvolt the soleno¯d. That coil it ment to take 24V for months, even years, so bursts of 36V won't hurt nor burn it. And even it would burn trough, it just ends up with a non working weapon. What outside the arena should be pressureless according the rules.

I will point out that non of the Burkert 5404 failures were the result of a non damaged body. Most of the times it was lack of power in the solenoid to pull the plunger against the pressure-drop; or by swarf/dirt between the shuttle and bodyseat.

Another pneumatic weapon failure is rather electronicaly. If the RC switch passes electricity the valve can be open. But that too can't be blamed at the Burkert.

Even a full hit of Little Hitter on the stainless steel solenoid tube in Hannibalito 1s Burkert didn't cause any leakage nor catastrophic failure of the valve.
It just didn't work anymore, the valve stayed open when pressure was applied. Rasing the flipperarm gently and blowing off CO2 trough the dump home when the bottle was opened and the buffertank filled.

We replaced the solenoide/plunger tube, and H1 was ready to rock again.

[maddox10]

Have you got one of those documents you can scan and show us as a template?

Hmm.... I tought I did type I have only digital scans.
And if you want, I can post a document I write 10 minutes from now. Still as legal.
What reminds me. I have the paper originals from 2002, from the stainless steel main frame-tanks of Project 2:Hex'em. One of the reasons Derek Foxwell cursed me. And probably the reason Mentorn posted that only 1.1 and 2 kg commercial CO2 bottles were allowed for series 6. (but that would be to boastfull to my opinion) . I can mail a copy to you by snail-mail. Even with official copy stamps on those documents.


I believe Behemoth suffered from that rulechange too. In Series 5 600 gram paintball bottles were used.

Mario, according to me I know what a dump valve does...and how to fill a bottle...ive done it a couple of times...In that heavyweight i made that won the uk champs, back in 2006, when i was 17?.. im 23 now and ive done more since. I dont need a lecture.

You don't need a lecture.

The reason i dont like the push buttons is due to the fact you have to hold them down while the gas runs out... slows down an arena marshalls job between fights, just personal opinion.

True, but if that is a problem, what about robots with bashed in Removable Links? Stuck relais? Burnt trough SSR's? Blown Mosfets?

You seem to take things very personal.

Yes, I do. Especialy if my competence and experience is questioned without reason.

[Mouldy]

Yeah scan it in, be good to look at.

As i said its just my opinion on the push button dumps, but unlike a bashed in link etc thats a one off, you have to deal with it after every round. But there not against the rules, so it doesnt matter.

I didnt quetion your experiance etc.

[Jeroenl]

As the burkert is officially tested by Mike lambert, cant we al use the same test results ?

[maddox10]

Unfortunatly, no.

Because the rather custom application, and the time involved (12 years?),official recertification is needed.

And who is eager to spend money on something currently accepted?

Also, with the years of experience, is it needed?
Unless Burkert changes something radicaly in the 5404 valve I don't see a reason.

[team_mute]

Mute got hit by the robot wars rule change too, we argued for some time with Derek but never got anywhere, but it did work out ok in end with a lot of mods.

Mutes stuff is tested by a LTD company which carries its own insurance etc, therefore it would be classed as a 3rd party.

The Type 0255 Burket is rated by Burket for 100barg but im guessing you arent going to get the same flow as a Type 5404, havent got a clue on the internal bores so im not sure