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Is this even worth fighting for?
I was not targeting you specificly, but a joke is only funny when told once - after that it becomes a nuisance. There have been so many discussions on Razers no-show in the past 7 months on this and the other forum that some people are simply fed up with it.
Now... which of the robots who participate in this World Championship could be regarded as possible winners ?
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Before S7 I did a lot of research, a lot of my time was taken on the phone to Steve Carsey, to-ing and fro-ing.
As a high profile team I felt it finally layed upon us to put it all on the line, FOR A BETTER FUTURE FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED.
I could see, as well as Steve, that if Things did not reach a critical mass again then we were all in for the arrival of the end of our beloved RW.
Mentorn played a very cool business line, we nearly pulled it off.
Back ground conversations go on, not even the greatest gossips know the whole story or ever will. I dont discuss everything.
A few of us stood very strong, and painfully bit our lip as the show went ahead. We heard the BS gossip that was flying around, and the people fuelling it..........judge their caracter if you will.
Simon and I have had to Step up to the Mark on many occasions,and weve stood strong, here and in the U.S.
We are proud of our achievements and respect whole heartedly the achievements of others.
The picture and story is a very complex one, never try to genralise, it misrepresents and doesnt do the parties involved, the justice they deserve.
Heres to happier days where we all have a dam good battle, like nothing better .
Ian...........Razer
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Ahh..
The official line as such...
Bout damn time, even if it was a bit cryptic :)
Sam
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Ian, great to hear from you to set the record straight ! There certainly has been much gossip, and I for one apologise if I got the story wrong. You didnt want to stand alongside the likes of Tornado, Bulldog etc (and us) when we made a stand so; I guess I assumed this was about your own financial position rather than the communities. My apologies.
Surley though non-appearance at Series 7 doesnt meant the end of the Razer team though - trying to argue for better conditions in RW doesnt stop you from doing what Team Razer is about..... Fighting Robots !
Dont melt out on us guys with a message like Memories from the Glory Years on your website. Youll have to excuse some of us if that sounds like a team in their twilight years rather than one thats going strong :sad:
Ed
http://www.stormrobot.comhttp://www.stormrobot.com
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Igor look - the monster - it lives!!!! :)
Only kidding Ian .....anyway I see it as a wind up by JB. The worth of the World Championships is a pointless argument but that aside, I dont speak for the biggest Razer fan, I speak for probably the smallest and Im getting tired of explaining to him that Razer wont be here, there or anywhere and, really, I still dont know why.
I agree with Ed - RW isnt roboteering and its demise will be a setback - not the end.
Even if you come to event with Razer and just stand there looking pretty (?!) youll be showing your solidarity with those whove been supporting the sport on both sides of the fence.
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im sure there was a few robot teams who decided to boycott at one stage but razer were not interested in going along with it.
So looking at ians post he seems to be saying he did it for the Greater Good in so many words so why not stick with the other teams who wanted to boycott to make a real strong stand.
or am i just misreading his rather cryptic post.
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If your talking about this years stand with Tornado, Bulldog and storm...........If you talk to Mr Kane youll get the whole picture on that situation.
I was informed that the powers that be told some rather dodgy lines, informing other parties that we had agreed to go in 7 and the world, when we absolutly did not.
This is what broke the group and stopped it holding together.
Come on, Stop tying our stand to financial.
There is a much bigger picture, I know money is a powerful system, but dont let it cloud over the rest of the story which contains a whole lot of other more personal issues which at the end of the day carry a lot further.
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Ian
I dont want to see another row here, but if you were in the group that stood to be counted Im a monkey!
There was a very public posting in several places from all the teams involved, you were never even mentioned, and you were noticeably very very quiet over the whole issue..
I know for a fact that you were invited.. very specifically to join the group being one of the names that it was felt would carry some weight..
From what I know, you refused!
I dont think financials is a bad reason... but at least be honest about it..
Sam
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Theres plenty I could say about this state of affairs - but not here.
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I dont see why people should have to say anything.
As a personal joke I started this thrad, and people have used it as an oppertunity to attack the Razer boys.
Some of the people who have posted have information that justifies their responses, or their arguements at least, but most people just dont like them.
I think that this thread should be closed before more harm is done.
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Ill second that, James.
P.S. Razer rocks!!
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Personal joke or not, like em or not - no ones laughing and some people have taken it personally especially with some of the stuff thats appeared on this forum written by people, some claiming to be friends, who know exactly why. With friends like that who needs enemies?
Ian, Im really uneasy about saying this but by you talking in riddles youve merely added more fuel to the fire. I can honestly say that Ive avoided speculation (I simply dont know) but its made me more determined to rationalise your stance on this. We all know that RW is in a very precarious situation right now. You dont even have to say I told you so. But you lost that battle - that€™s tough, but the fact is there are a lot more games to play out there.
Youre being asked (nicely) to come out to play before you get left behind!
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Ian is always talkin in riddles.
The fact is, people speculate, and people moan, and people demand answers.... you want the truth?
For whatever reason, Razer boycotted.
Deal with it, it was their choice.
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Me metaphysicist, him ventriloquist. Q.E.D.
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ok,
now Ive lost the ability to read as that made no sense to me.
Ian is away on hols now, so be patient, Im sure hell have more to say when he gets back.
Cheers
James
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Half of this thread i dont understand so...
Does this mean Razer will not only not appear in any more championships but live events to?
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I dont know *Shrugs* Who cares! IMO, anyone who boycotts in this sort of manner is no longer a robot held in high regard by me.
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Time to add my rant to the list.
Matty, youre welcome to your opinion, but my feeling is that if Ian and Simon dont want to enter Razer into a competition for *any* reason, thats their prerogative. Given Razers past record, it seems unlikely that their decision not to enter had anything to do with not wanting to get beaten - Razers taken a beating on a number of occasions in the past. The worst that they could be accused of, if their reason *had* been to avoid getting trashed by a harder robot, is conceding that Razer didnt have a chance of winning - and giving up the world title and not having a chance to compete for the national title are self-inflicted consequence if that were the case.
There have been issues with the rules for season 7, as expressed by other roboteers - and many of those issues I also have concerns with as a future roboteer. If team Razer didnt want to enter under those rules, whether in protest for the good of the community or because they just werent personally prepared to accept fighting under the rules (for financial reasons or otherwise), I dont have a problem with that. The fact that they didnt enter indicates the strength of feeling on the subject - not that I have any beef with other dissenters entering. That for whatever reason their objections werent associated with the almost-boycott of other roboteers is unfortunate, in that it wouldve strengthened the position of both groups, but no-one can claim that there was nothing to which to object, and whatever caused the groups not to get together is water under the bridge now. Im sure the fuss has registered with the decision makers at Mentorn, at least (should there be a next series for it to affect).
Im sure any such major decision has many factors, and Ian (and Simon) are quite within their rights not to make all their personal issues public. I may be *interested* in what exactly happened, but only in a tabloid journalism kind of way, and I dont think theyre under any obligation to say.
For what its worth, even if its just one of many factors, Im grateful to the team for taking a stand - as I am to the group who tried to get Mentorn to change their position. If no roboteer ever objected to Mentorns rules, we wouldnt have the FRA as it exists today. As a future roboteer I have no interest in entering a design into a competition run by Mentorn - and havent had for some years. That anyone is showing the view of the building community is commendable. One group tried to set Mentorn right, but felt obliged to enter for the good of their fans; the Razer team felt it was more important to support other builders by showing the strength of their feeling (if the problem was predominantly financial, it was still a financial objection to the rules, not the tournament), and their absence will have prompted the public to become aware of the problems more than rumours of a boycott would.
There may well be some underlying dissent from those who know more than I do about the situation (and cant say), and ill feeling that the stand against Mentorn didnt present as strong a front as it should have done. Someone may be to blame for that; fine, but thats passed, and - since errors are made (especially in personal communication) when tempers run high - these things happen. So team Razer may or may not be entirely blameless in all things (especially, as accused on some reports, when it comes to their personal skills), but it sounds to me as though most people agree with the overall reason for the boycott, if not the manner in which it was conducted.
Its unfortunate that the team has been somewhat alienated from the community by this situation, but I dont think theres any cause to doubt their intent, and theres never been a reason to doubt the engineering and driving behind Razer itself. Its sad that not everyone in the roboteering community gets along (when most do), but I dont think any less of any team as roboteers because of it.
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Fluppet
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Well stated.
Can we go on with fighting robots instead of persons now ? (The next ones still continuing to moan about Razer may receive a private message from me with a detailed and thorough example of why people should not fight people over this... got it ? After reading said message you are free to pick up and gather the ruins of your ego or personality and be encouraged to get on with your life !!! OK so this is ranting, but hey grow up will you...)
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As a footnote to all this - Ian Lewis no longer sells the Big Issue in the foyer of ASDA. Hes been replaced by someone else who by chance does not look like Simon Scott :)
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Andrew,
You said There have been issues with the rules for season 7, as expressed by other roboteers - and many of those issues I also have concerns with as a future roboteer. ...As a future roboteer I have no interest in entering a design into a competition run by Mentorn - and havent had for some years.
As far as I can tell Mentorn are completely out of the Robot Wars business so the question of entering a design into a competition run by Mentorn is not likely to arise.
The rule set used for Series 7 and the FRA rules are very similar. The most important differences betweenthe two rule sets is that the FRA set allows a much wider choice of gas bottles and allow robots without an offensive weapon.
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Sorry, John - I should have been clearer about that, it sounds too much like I have a problem with the FRA as well, and I dont.
With two possible exceptions (the raised voltage limit and the requirement for nonstatic weaponry, neither of which apply to the FRA) I have no problem with the rules for the design of robot permitted at Robot Wars. Neither of those are likely to apply to a robot I build anyway, but that doesnt stop me objecting to the rules. :-)
My rules objections to Robot Wars mostly concern behaviour of the house robots/arena hazards, particularly with respect to treatment of (usually) defeated robots. Ive never seen a copy of the rules which mentions, for example, the mercy clause so I presume theres something (possibly contractual) in addition to the building guides Ive seen posted. The same applies to remuneration. I guess theres an additional set of fight rules, rather than building rules, because Ive not seen a formal description of deadly embraces, maximum holding periods, what constitutes being unreasonably trapped on an arena hazard, and so on - yet these things are, apparently, regulated (if a little loosely).
My understanding - and please forgive me if Ive got the wrong end of the stick on this - is that group(s) of roboteers complaining before season 7 were doing so primarily because of concerns about competitor machines being trashed by the house robots for good television without adequate compensation or means to object.
I see the difference between Robot Wars and the live events as being, primarily, that in Robot Wars if you dont win, theres a sporting chance that youll have to completely rebuild your robot. Live events continue until something terminal breaks - but with a bit of luck itll only be one thing, and after repairs you can fight again another day. If not, hard luck, but at least its a fair fight in which you got trashed. I would enter a live event with the best robot I could build; I would only enter Robot Wars with the best robot I could afford to lose.
I feel that both the fact that people might be put off from entering their best robots (in many cases that means entering *at all*), and that many otherwise competent robots get made incapable of future competition as a result of a trashing by house robots (or at least that time is spent rebuilding them which could have been spent improving the design), are bad things. Bad for Robot Wars itself, bad for the live event scene, bad for the audience who want to take an interest in the engineering effort or support a particular machine, and bad for the roboteers who have spent time, money, blood, sweat and tears on their creations. Whoever at Mentorn decides that destroying machines just for the violence of it is a good thing clearly disagrees with me, whereas I believe my viewpoint is shared by a number of eminent roboteers. The regulations permitting this to take place are what I object to - and what I understand others to object to as well.
Its true that it looks unlikely that Mentorn will be behind season 8/extreme 3/anything else in the immediate future; however these are views Ive held since the early years of (televised) Robot Wars, and I have always made the distinction that Id love to build a combat robot (and probably will, soon) but not to have a house robot dismantle it for me. Therefore out of habit I tend to state the difference, even if it turns out never again to be an issue.
Since Ive always been hard on Mentorn, I should probably say that I know there are competent people responsible for Robot Wars who are sympathetic to the roboteers. However someone somewhere in Mentorn is responsible for the decision to allow these trashings to happen (and the dodgy editing, and the spoilers, and past problems with floor staff, and allowing JP to spout garbage...) so I tend to lay the blame at the company as an entity. Just so people know Im not tarring everyone with the same brush.
It was, however, high time that some roboteers stood up and said we make the show work, and were not happy with our work being trashed just for the sake of someones idea of good TV. Big hand to everyone who did.
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Fluppet
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Er, just in case that wasnt long enough, I should of course say that I greatly enjoy Robot Wars as a programme, and Im a bit wary of doing down Mentorn too much about it (especially when its like speaking ill of the dead). But Id have enjoyed it a heck of a lot more if it was run like an FRA live event with studio lights, and Im just not prepared to put my own handiwork on the line in that way.
(Sorry, Ill shut up now.)
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Fluppet
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As A Razer Fan, Ive read these huge amount of posts and have had to look at both sides of the stories, and Ive come to post my opinion.
Razer, its a wonderful machine, as many of you have commented, you could say it is one of a kind by form. One of the reasons I back Razer is, because it was one of the last veteran robots from back around Series 2. For its age, it has done what many robots and roboteers have only dreamed of doing. The record is proof of that. I believe Ian and Simon dont think they are gods, but mere mortals like the rest of us. Remember Razer was not always this winning robot like a lot of you think, for the first few seaons of its battling life, it broke down. Many people dubbed it the Unreliable bot.
Now, if the Razer Team no longer want to battle in RobotWars, so be it, stop bitching about it, and all you fanatics out there, stop creating posts saying that Razer will beat all! You are starting to shit people off! But Also, on the same note, I would like to see the guys from the Shredder Team to stop posting childish remarks like big girls they are. I find that a bit below your level guys. I certainly wouldnt even at my mere age of 16 say to you guys You guys suckass, get a decent spinner because I find that morally wrong even if I was joking, its a bit like all the people who always downed Napalm, but as far as I see, Napalm should be commended for their efforts, even if they didnt get through a round. Nothing against you guys from the Shredder Team, but I just think that comment was a bit low.
I just wish for everyone to accept that Razer has finished its RobotWars competition, no more tinking about how it would fair against the new bots or the like. I support Ian and Simons decision, they made it because they wanted to.
As I finish this semi-ranting post, Im just going to say as a verteran Razer fan, Razer will always be the Inspirational figure in my roboteering mind. Plus, even though Razer is now retired from RobotWars, there is always the awesome Warhead in BB! Something that a lot of UK bots wouldnt like :proud:
Thank you for at least reading my post, whether you considered it worthy or not.
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My comments being a bit low unusual for me. Still big girls they are..
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its a bit like all the people who always downed Napalm, but as far as I see, Napalm should be commended for their efforts, even if they didnt get through a round.
Actually, in every single War the team have competed in, David Crosby and co have ALWAYS managed to get to at least Round 2 :proud: (including the Ex 1 Annihilator they had to pull out of)
And as for the Razer thing, its the teams decision whether they should compete or not:), so shut your yappers and just enjoy the new generation of demolishers :proud: Its not like well ever forget such a terrifying machine anyway :proud:
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What machine is that?
Love Dorie the Fish :)
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oh boy, here we go again.......
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Regretting this joke every day. As I was told not long ago, as I am seen as the Razer bum boy (whatever that means) my original post was taken too seriously.
I would say, unless you have met the teams, and discussed the situation with them, and been around when things developed then nobody can know the truth. Not putting anyone down with that, but its a complicated issue and involves many things that are not robotwars.
I would have said that Aaron is so far away, (in Oz) he cannot know the roboteers, but the comment You guys suckass, get a decent spinner is so uncanny I think he may know us in the UK better than we think :) (retort to Chris O)
ps, I know Karoline, no need to say it.....
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Dont no what u mean James.
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You guys suckass, get a decent spinner
Hehehehe
Yep.. youre probably right there anyway :)
Sam
P.S I didnt dis Razer even once.. read the thread again, Ive questioned there reasons for not attending RW and I didnt agree with their party line... but hey... its still a great machine!
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But where would Robot Wars be without the dreaded vinyl player that is Shredder?? :)
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i thought it more of a reel-2-reel tape deck than a dj deck
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Perhaps we should just fit a stylus and be done with it..
Im sure thered be some enterprising DJ out there who could fit a 100kilo aluminium and titanium deck into his stage set..
Couple of disco lights mounted behind the holes in the wheels and hed be away :)
Any offers for the purchase then?
Sam
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I can see a very amusing srimech in that idea.
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Fluppet
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stick a 15inch subwoofer on the back and you could be in business there Sam
although, finding a DJ into heavymetal may prove difficult.
For the record, I think Shredder is one of the better spinners in the Uk, just hasnt had the tv coverage to prove it. I take Debenham last year, and the RW qualifiers as my justification for thinking its under-rated by the general public.
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As I probably mentioned in my last post:
Quote: P.S. Razer rocks!!
I quite like Razer, it is a fantastic piece of engineering. Also Ive been chronicling Razers combat history (as well as Robot Wars, it also include friendly tournaments & Battlebots, but it does not include fan fic tournaments), it has notched up a impressive 60 fights, thats 50 fight wins & 10 fight losses which for a machine which started off its trophy cabinet by winning a Best Design in Series 2 that later went on to win World championship titles & even the UK title during its 4th year. Now that is impressive & I totally respect them for their fight record!! :)
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especially when you think that the robot was mostly unchanged from series 2.
yes, the wings, new motors, new speed controllers, new batteries, new wheels..... ok, a lot changed, but the weapon itself still uses the same hydraulics it always did, so it never got any more powerful. For it to still be the best (Ill add vertical) crusher... to date as far as Im aware, is something I have always respected.
Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here?
Razer developed a concept, and won.
Motis developed a concept, and didnt win.
Storm 2 was a compltely new concept and won.
how many robots are new concepts each year?
The lesson being??? there are no hard and fast rules as to what works and what doesnt, whats crap and whats great. I think a robot should be judged on its achievements, and Ill stick with that statement, even if a lot of its achievements are not so widely known.
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James, Im not sure we won according to the judges ! I think theres a spinning lampshade that might dispute your claim there :P
Know what you mean though, its hard to predict what might or might not do well. Storm II was about taking a concept to an extreme, Razer was about refining a design to an extreme.
As a team I think we were oblivious to the fact that Storm II seemed to be a favourite at Series 7, I guess thats because we know all the flaws that it has !
Ed
http://www.teamstorm.com