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Hi, I started this thread to gauge support and opinions for a project to bring back robot wars with a redeveloped format. Constructors will be using more computer and programmed functionality, and their progress would be documented and tracked during the series. The aim is to gain government support and improve the technical and computing teaching in schools.
I will be following this thread with interest and am looking for like minded individuals to partner with.
Thanks,
AIBB
One of things I noticed only just the other day was the huge LACK of robots in the later series of Robot Wars.
Even I got bored and stopped watching around Season 5 and I realised this was because in Season 1 the show was only 30mins, but you got to see 6 robots competing in a variety of formats every week.
I watched an episode of Extreme the other day, 1 hour and I saw 4 robots, soooo much talking too!
With the first 3 seasons lots of shots of the pits, people working on robots, close ups on the inners etc...
It also had much more rustic charm, the later ones just seemed too fake.
Just my 2 pennies.
Sums my feelings on it up in a nutshell, cheers PJ :)
The other thing that got to me about the show later on was just how much stuff they were willing to stick the RW logo on. Replica toys and such I can understand, but I feel the just tried to squeeze too much money out of the brand through merchandise. Brands such as Star Wars, that stretch back decades, can get away with it (they're still churning out Phantom Menace stuff in some of the latest store catalogues) but RW couldn't, in my opinion anyway.
That description of the earlier shows feeling rustic, exactly! It was only when I re-watched Series 1 and 2 recently on Youtube that I realised how much that feel was lacking from the later series'. Things like the Trial games, Craig's introductory speeches and little quips here and there just completed it nicely.
So yeah, if it was to come back in some way, shape or form, I'd like to see a return to games and assault courses, in addition to battles of course. Promotes the importance of good driving and things such as ramps and 'cattle grids' could help deter a ground-scraping wedge culture. Also, less WWE style trash-talk, more technical coverage of the robots. If it can educate while entertaining, it's much more beneficial.
Just to add to that, I don't see such a program coming back as Robot Wars. It is a format that is known for what it was and has had its time on screen.
A new programme would have to have a new name, new approach and fresh feel in order to stand a chance of succeeding. And while I'm quietly pessimistic about a show of that scale ever actually making it back on to television, anything that promotes the sport in a positive way and encourages new people to get involved is to be supported.
Thank you all for the contributions to this discussion thread.
As a seasoned graduate in A.I. ! I imagine a new format involving more autonomous BattleDroids, battling in gladiatorial style, using the latest software and sensory devices.
The emphasis would be on the A.I.Robot builds and hobbyists. A more technical and grass roots hobbyist slant, and far less WWE style false reality show input from hosts and competitors.
I am currently in contact with junior parliament members investigating how the show can also be used in conjunction with an education program to promote technical and computing skills.
I would ask that members of the RFL and hobbyists get involved, and please contribute to this thread to keep the dream alive for current and future Robot builders and viewers alike.
Many thanks.
I voted yes, with a new format, by which I mean returning to the core of the sports that you got to see glimpses of in the earlier series' of RW. The later shows were brilliant too but they were more that than anything, a show.
I can't say autonomous machines strikes me as an obvious direction to take the sport, as very few roboteers have ever gone there. I can name just one fully autonomous machine, and it's in the US and still being developed. I believe one of the main attractions for most of us is actually being at the controls of the robots, and by moving partially or entirely to AI, the TV companies might take more of an interest but the hobbyists themselves might be put off. Plus, I can't imagine the robots would be as impressive as piloted machines, which with today's tech would be even more extreme than in series 7.
Just slightly playing devils advocate^, but as far as I'm concerned do please keep looking into the TV possibilities. Whatever the format, there is an absolute mountain of learning material in this hobby, I think there is no question that education would benefit greatly from joining in.
Howdy
Newbie here. Never built a robot, maybe never will (but I plan to try, starting with asking some questions on this forum)
But as a fan for many, many years, the TV show is sorely missed.
I'm quite sure it WOULD need a new lease of life to make it back onto prime-time. But I think a major part of the problem in terms of viewing figures was the lack of innovation.
Safety regs are of course necessary, and so is fairness. But seeing 20 wedges flip each other for hours-on-end does not inspire new generations of students, families, kids, designers, teams..
What is wanted is the mayhem and violence that is promised, as a vehicle for the genuine education and exploration of ideas that lies behind it all. And THAT requires teams to be very free to come up with mad, nasty, metal-munching, devious tactics and weapons etc. Which in turn would require some very, very serious money put into a completely safe arena and protected audience. It isn't gonna happen that way.
But lets not also forget that TV is probably going to have to re-think itself in the next 5 years anyway. If sponsorship and advertising could garner enough money to make a success out of a purely online approach, then what's stopping it?
Well, if James Cameron's show gets off the ground properly, this sort of robot combat will be back on the air in a pretty big way, but I think I really must disagree with you when it comes to innovation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Wizard
The big problem in the UK right now is that spinners aren't allowed at the heavyweight level due to the arena ceilings not being able to handle them. The sort of money that a television show would bring in would probably fix that (especially considering that one of the reasons the current UK arenas can't handle the spinners is due to the need for portability), and you'd start seeing a full range of robots again.
Also, I think it is worth pointing out that what drives innovation in this sort of contest is the arms race created when somebody comes up with an otherwise off-the-wall idea. If you asked me the two most important robots in the UK robot wars, I'd say Chaos 2 and Hypnodisc, no contest. Both of them were obsolete by the end of the television series, but it was thanks to them that a lot of the armour and robot weapons developed as they did. So, that sort of innovation is not something you can really impose from the outside - you need another Hypnodisc or Chaos 2 to force roboteers to react. And that requires the enthusiastic participants.
(Oh yes - and welcome to the forum, fellow fan!)
Cheers Garwulf.
We agree that innovation is the driving force for success. But are you sure there is room for such innovation under current regs? (and again, this isn't a whinge; I recognise the need for such regs) Most of the innovation we see now is under the bonnet since we ended-up with 3 main bot types (brick, wedge, spinner) with the exception of tin-openers such as Razor who also deserves a place in the pantheon of game-changing ideas.
It's great coming-up with new, spinner-proof armour for example, but it doesn't change the nature of the bot. For the onlooker, it's just the same bot as ever before.
It's about creating a spectacle.
I agree about the arena making a difference, certainly. But I doubt we'll see this on tv again until we having something brand-new for audiences. Even Dr Who's come-back came with some major format changes.
Could we have aquatic and aerial divisions? (Yeah, I can see how tough that would be too, but brainstorming here) and I personally would like to see more walkers now materials have moved-on a bit (That's what I plan to work-on!)#
:)
Interesting point about walkers, I have two, (links below) the rules for walkers have been recently tightened up to such a level they are not illegal but now not practical, under the two degrees of movement clause both the robots on the videos would be technically shufflers, and would not be allowed any weight allowances. Perhaps in the future we may get something to work on say walker against walker fights but until then we can only talk of what might have been.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf8Ft...lAbBMw&index=8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tfid...lAbBMw&index=3
I have seen your Theo Jansen before! Not the spider though: is that based on klaan?
These would disqualify on the basis of powered by rotary motion/cam anyhow in my understanding.
I reckon I may have cracked it, but its all just on paper for now. Start prototyping next payday :D
if we have larger terrain, more outdoors-y it woukd be interesting to see bots coping with grass, gravel, uphill, puddles, climbing "trees" etc and roboteers using an on-board cam.
The technique developed by Mike Franklin for Scuttle in Technogames and Anarchy in Robotwars counts as two axis. Its the only system I know of that you could use at the moment. I am planning to build a wooden machine to test the principal. However actually making a machine that was combat ready would be insanely expensive. Around £1000 with no weapon is what I clocked one of my simpler designs at.
I thought that might be the case, but wasn't sure. Was hoping so. Anarchy was the first and as far as I can tell, ONLY walker that one's opponent wouldn't simply laugh-at.
I feel as though my various designs all solve the issue (need to find out how well they perform) but I haven't dared to look at the cost yet because like with you, it's clear that it'll be VERY expensive.
Might it be possible to see some of the rules relaxed for very specific occasions? I mean... say the winning team get a budget to build a house-robot sized and suitably weaponized bot (so flamethrowers etc allowed) to compete with the ACTUAL house robots? (And last year's effort added to the house robots stable, too)
Lets see the house bots evolve, get hurt, change, die, form vendettas etc too.
Well, I'm afraid I can't really speak with any intelligence about the regulations, as I haven't given them a proper read, or have the engineering background to understand the full share of their limitations or implications. That said, though, I think the important thing is the people - you get something like Razer or Hypnodisc when some gifted amateur comes up with some out-of-left-field idea (hopefully the baseball metaphor works here) that nobody ever thought of before. That can be encouraged, but not directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Wizard
As I wrote in a Livejournal post a couple of months ago, the Robot Wars show had a very important underlying message - "You can do this too - come join us!" So, people got to see something insanely fun, followed by encouragement to build a robot of their own. And, that worked. So, I think, regardless of the format, any new show would need to have that underlying message to bring in the new blood.
As far as the current variety goes, I think it is important to remember that the most thrilling and exciting fights depended on the robot driver more than the technology. One of the most exciting fights on the television show, as I recall, was between Chaos 2 and Wild Thing, both of which were flipper bots. But, they both had first-class drivers, and that made for a truly exciting fight. And, although they are storytelling tropes, people do love to get behind the underdog, particularly when it is fighting one of the more powerful spinners.
When it comes to how I would prefer the format, there are a few ways that I would do it:
- A firm focus on the people. This is part of the "you can do this too" message - it really is a powerful thing to see this stuff on television and realize in the interview that the roboteers are ordinary people just like you.
- Bring back some, but not all, of the side events. I think series three had it right when they got rid of the qualifiers. But, it is fun to spice up the action with special events such as combat robot hockey or an obstacle course.
- No visible corporate sponsorship. I know this would take money away from the teams, but it would also reinforce the "you can do this too" message. As soon as you have corporate logos plastered on the side of robots, it becomes a lot more intimidating for new blood to try to get into the sport. Instead, if there must be corporate sponsorship, it should be going to the organizing body and divided out to the teams based on financial need - that way, there would be a level playing field, and a more exciting sport.
- Keep the game show format. Seriously, it works. Compare the Robot Wars viewing figures with Battlebots, and it's no contest - Robot Wars was a smashing international success, and Battlebots was a niche show. The fact is that the game show format told the story of a robot tournament on television better than a robot tournament did (strange, but true).
- Oh yes, and PAY THE ROBOTEERS! Seriously, I couldn't believe it when I read in Gearheads that the UK Roboteers for all intents and purposes never received a penny for their hard work, even as they and their robots became international stars. Shame on Mentorn for that, really. Please tell me that between now and then Mentorn actually paid them...
Hmm. I do think the personalities of the teams matter hugely and frankly, fully autonomous bots just won't cut the mustard in terms of good viewing. However, I think some inclusion of this may well help with funding, and it would be fun to see each bot have SOME autonomy. A "special-move" type of idea might work, self righting would be easy enough etc. and perhaps the more automated a bot is, the more concessions towards weight or something could be awarded. A certain amount of fly-by-wire is probably a natural progression anyhow (eg, selecting where in the arena you want the bot to go, rather than actually steering) But recognising an opponent vs house bots for example? Hmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by AIBB
I think there's some potential here, but nobody wants to watch bots dithering about, missing the opponent completely and bashing against the arena lamely. Its a gladiatorial contest and we want blood! Glory!
Well generally that was the case but Mentorn did hire the hotel where free rooms were given. Plusthere was a the refund of the Robot Wars club money , the free food from the burger van & sometimes a petrol allowance. Plus free liability insurance. Still two grains of rice though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garwulf
Well, a certain amount of autonomy, perhaps, but it would have to be pretty limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon Wizard
Something I noticed a while ago when it comes to these things. The first time a robot follows a line, it's amazing. The second time, it's cool. The third time, it's ordinary. The fourth time, it's little more than a technology demo.
There are sometimes robots with self-firing weapons, and a self-firing SRImech makes plenty of sense - but I wouldn't want it to go any further than that. The reason is simple - the more you remove the driver and the team from the equation, the more it becomes a technology demo once the match begins. People will care about the roboteers, and they'll care about the robots that they are driving - but I really don't think they'd care about autonomous robots for long, even if on a technological level they are more impressive.
Just a thought but perhaps there is something fundamentally wrong with the way we judge the events. The criteria for Battle bots allowed for even the most bizarre robots to be able to take victory on a regular basis. Where here, cos damage gets you such a high number of points you end up with lots of spinners and then armoured flippers that are designed to end the fight quickly.
One thought that I had what to include another element... expected damage. This is heavily dependant on your driving skill and your aggression as you may have a powerful spinner but if you cant utilise the weapon properly that is either poor design or poor driving.
I have no idea how you would go about scoring that but I am just throwing it out there.
Finally I guess that as we can OOTA this gives flippers an easy victory. Flippers are less common in the US as they don't have an OOTA but you see launchers that aim for massive air and the resulting internal and structural damage. Even if you put wall son 2 sides of the arena you reduce the chance of an OOTA by 50%. This would give machines that cant OOTA or end the fight quickly to gain more points for control and aggression over longer lasting fights.
I also love the idea of having an angled edge to the arena. Say that a 2m length on all sides is at a 20-30dgr angle with the wall at the top as usual. what would that do to the style of robots?
Just an idea- what if an oota wasn't an automatic win, instead after an oota it went to judges decision. That way flippers are still effective but they will have to drive well and try to be aggressive throughout the fight then flip the other robot out at the end so that way they win the decision. Whereas if an axe bot was aggressive throughout the fight then got flipped out at the end it would still win the decision!
I'm not sure how popular or fair this idea is.. but I'm guess that the oota would carry some serious points? That might make it a reasonable way of doing things...Quote:
Originally Posted by Max
Oota are cool, just not when it happens in the first 30 seconds!
One of the things which really annoyed me about robot wars was the use of house robots. Being someone who sees robotic combat just as much as a sport than as a hobby, it was so irritating to see a house robot tear a chunk out of one opponent and hardly damage another. Even if it's by accident, I'd like house robots to be used just for whiteboards, though I know this is how it was for last year's champs.
Also, just an idea for how to judge these fights. Instead of having a robot win for simply lasting, how about points are awarded for immobilizing opponents, and how they do this. Something like 0 points for entering a fight, 1 point for stacking an opponent or turning them over so they can't self-right, 2 points for an OOTA or pitting, 3 points for braking an opponent so they are completely unable to move (full immobolization) and 4 points for total annihilation (taking a wheel or two off, or ripping off a sizable body panel), and then take away the corresponding amount of points for robots losing in those ways. This encourages destruction and means even if a robot is pitted in a fight, it can still win. Oh, also, -5 points for not turning up to a battle.
As an experiment, I tried this with the FW qualifiers with pretty good results. LS4 came first, LH3 joint second with Explosion, 720 fourth, Beauty 2 fifth, NST sixth and so on, so I think quite accurate to how good the machines are. Judges might have a hard time keeping up though.
Solvable by reviewing the fight on film though, if judges score-cards do not agree. Only required if the difference in opinion actually changes the outcome of the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by MudnuK
Return the Perimeter patrol zone to conquer OOTAs. also I'm thinking bungee cord.
I hate to get in the way of anyone's ideas, and I wish not to sound abrubt, but why try to fix something that isn't broken.
I mean, all that an untrained eye wants to see is mass destruction with big spinny things and I think that from the number of people that were watching the fights at GSL, we are already in a good position with this. Even Roaming Robots (Robot Wars) and Robots Live are getting sell out shows on many events. What I think we need to do is make what we have already got more publicised to a wider audience (i.e having events, as they are, shown on TV). Also, I was just searching through Dave (tv channel) listings and the comments that people had made about Robot Wars. People loved the show as it was, and I think as long as there is carnage, they won't care about the scoring system etc.
I also think that the main aim, in the short term, is to get HW spinners back up and running.
Anyways, just putting that out there :)
I legitimately think that Robot Wars, in that format, had it's time. As much as I'd love to see it back, it's never going to be back to the style of Series 5-7 because there's just not going to be as many heavyweights about. What I would love to see, however, is Arenas of Destruction style 'makeshift' arenas - I know that's a logistical and health and safety nightmare, but it'd be rather cool to see robots fight in a disused factory, or in a scrapyard, or some obscure location to mix things up a tad, because I think that's why the viewing figures started to drop... each successive series (especially 5 onwards) was pretty much the same thing...
I think the 'golden age' of Robot Wars was definitely series 2-4, when the innovations were really coming out but there were also loads of variations of the formula like the gauntlet, Sumo Basho, Pinball... that kind of thing. Likewise, the whole idea of TechnoGames is something I'd love to see come back alongside Robot Wars. It had a lot more personality back then as well, it wasn't all fake aggression and shouting all the time - Craig Charles' little 'stand up' bit at the start of each episode was absolutely great, and I do think that's something that was really missing from the later episodes.
If it were to come back though, it'd need a major overhaul - I think the arena would need a complete redesign visually, the house robots would need improving (not to cause more unnecessary damage, rather to be as imposing as possible) and I think you'd need a massive structural change to the competition as a whole. Probably need a way of nerfing flippers a bit too, they were really popular later on as I'm sure you all know, and it wasn't as interesting to watch when a great number of robots had the same weapon. I'd love to see a new type of weapon 'invented' but I'm not sure what else can be done within the rules!
I've just been doing a video about all this for Youtube as well, so if it seems like I've got a lot to say on that matter, that's probably why!
Yes bring it back!
What i would change...
- Similar arena to Battlebots where robots can't be flipped out.
- Radically reduce weight limit (and maybe other aspects) for robots with heavy rotational weapons. (Flywheels/spinners)
I think the main reason contestants lost interest is the fact that their robots were being ripped apart by crude spinning weapons. If the rules were changed to make those INCREDIBLY hard to build and enter with additional limits, i think people will be interested again. This would also likely stop the majority of the thick metal "boxes" that were being entered around the same time.
Just my thoughts but I genuinely believe it was the "spinners" and "boxes" that killed the show.
Personally, I would also like it to have house robots.
Remember, its a tv show.
The house robots were there to LOOK good.
Id like to bring it back
I agree, but it would need to get millions of viewers as the show was expensive to make.
I don't think you'll find it went off-air due to contestants losing interest ! It went off air because it cost £250,000 an episode to film. Producing something that is of suitable quality to air on TV takes a lot more effort than people think. Filming through the poly is almost a no-no as most people have discovered trying to film live events, and the lighting requirements for broadcast TV are significant.
Seriously - I really don't think the issue was anyone taking part that lost interest, that's not what makes the show happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris230291
What killed it in the Netherlands is BNN kept messing with the showtimes and dates so in the end no one including the competitors knew when the show was on TV.
Similar story to the UK but with a twist. We always knew when it was on & it always clashed with Coronation Street, the UK's most popular serial drama.Quote:
Originally Posted by leorcc
Same story with Doctor Who. Sylvester McCoy was scheduled against Coronation Street.
Not a tactic that works anymore. On demand views also count for advertising revenue therefore scheduling is less important to advertisers. Plus ratings also count their +1 channels.
Thats ridiculous! I didn't know that!Quote:
Originally Posted by teamstorm
Speaking without actually ever attending one of the current events, I don't understand why the organisers haven't bothered to properly film the battles. It wouldn't take much to set up a couple of protected cameras inside the arena, even if they are just relatively inexpensive ones. They could even have one on some kind of track around the top thats controlled remotely. After being filmed the footage could be edited together with all of the overlay eye candy Robot Wars had and thrown on a dedicated YouTube channel. If the channel was popular enough they could even see some revenue from it, though i'm not completely sure on how that works.
I have to say there is perhaps mileage in filming the raw material of the fights with broadcast quality cameras as every fight is unique and having good quality coverage of the fights has to be an asset that could be sold in the future.
I am sure the broadcast quality cameras are expensive but not as expensive to buy or hire as they were 12 years ago. Lighting would have to be increased but i am sure the lighting people would be able to adjust this. (speaking as an old man I could do with a bit more light in the arena anyway!!)
I am not saying the video footage has much commercial value at the moment, what I am saying is it could have in the future.
If Robot Wars goes back on TV the raw footage could be sold to the public as robot wars the early years, or even made into specials to be shown on any media. these can be edited into different formats, documentaries following the robot movement, or particular types of robots, or teams, or how things happened through the year or years or at particular venues, the list goes on!
The bottom line is the shows happen anyway so why not record them as best as you can?
I think it should be an internet show like combots was. Also I think the format needs redeveloping maybe get rid of the house robots and make it more sport than spectral.
Spectral? Relating to a ghost or derived from a spectrum?
*spectical
I hate auto correct