Using Helium to reduce your weight!

Ok, so I've thought about whether this would be allowed for a long time, and often dispelled it without further thought, but figured I'd get other opinions.

The idea is simple, but helium filled pockets inside the robot, to reduce it's weight (since helium is lighter than air, it'll rise, counteracting the effects of gravity.) I do believe the robot's mass will remain the same, although my Physics is a little rusty...

Obviously this has issues, volume to lift of helium is pretty low (talking grams from a single balloon) and they can be prone to popping. So don't know whether this would be effective or legal in the rules.

Just occurred to me since a lot of people seem to be putting magnets into their robots, producing the opposite effects of the balloons, increased mass, same weight, but offers an advantage withing the rules.

Any thoughts?

Mass is the constant ...weight varies with gravitational pull..and helium balloons :lol: .

You could reduce the weight of the robot with helium balloons but not the mass.

IF you made a 200kg bot and added 100kg of lift then under the rules it should be legal as it would weigh 100kg....however ANY reduction in lift ...ie a leak or popped balloon would instantly render the bot illegal.

To get lift from helium balloons you need volume ...

Helium has a lifting force of 1 gram per liter. So if you have a balloon that contains 5 liters of helium, the balloon can lift 5 grams.

1000 liters = 1 kg of lift ...etc

Personally I'm waiting on people to discover there's steel in the weighing scales :lol:

The added thing about helium would be you'd need to keep the wheels on the ground as no flying robots are allowed currently.

Could someone explain to me, why these magnets are legal?

I mean asides the obvious safety hazard of a machine dropping onto a Steel/Hardox floor & an avoidable stray magnetic field in a Tx area - surely that machine would breach the 30 pound weight limit as stipulated in the rules.

Bear this in mind for the responses:
Despite the presence of a unit of mass in the rule- it doesn't mention mass anywhere in the rules.
There is a unit of force that would still be valid, due to weight being a firce.

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Mass is the constant ...weight varies with gravitational pull..and helium balloons :lol: .

You could reduce the weight of the robot with helium balloons but not the mass.

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That's what I said wasn't it?.........

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To get lift from helium balloons you need volume ...

Helium has a lifting force of 1 gram per liter. So if you have a balloon that contains 5 liters of helium, the balloon can lift 5 grams.

1000 liters = 1 kg of lift ...etc

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So 200 balloons for 1kg..... Hhhhhhmmmmm.

Could make a robot like a Zeppelin! Then I would call it Lead Zeppelin!

Thanks,

@psychostorm

My plan with the Helium is to just reduce the weight, not completely remove it, so it would still be on the ground.

As for no flying, surely 360 breaks that rule? It never has all 4 wheels on the ground! *jokes*

I could always use Hydrogen instead of Helium, more lifting force.........

The magnet thing is tricky, the scales don't take into account the additional down force of the magnets, which does increase the robot's weight.

I think it's a neat solution, if a little sneaky.......

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That's what I said wasn't it?.........

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I didn't disagree did I ? .........

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The magnet thing is tricky, the scales don't take into account the additional down force of the magnets, which does increase the robot's weight.

I think it's a neat solution, if a little sneaky.......

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I agree ....

Eventually... after DM regularly trashes the oppostion... this loophole in the rules will be closed.

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Originally Posted by PJ-27

@psychostorm

My plan with the Helium is to just reduce the weight, not completely remove it, so it would still be on the ground.

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What happens if a spinner reduces the remaining mass to less than the uplift of the gas?

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As for no flying, surely 360 breaks that rule? It never has all 4 wheels on the ground! *jokes*

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360 doesn't fly, it lands in a prolonged & unorthadox manner. :lol:

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I could always use Hydrogen instead of Helium, more lifting force.........

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No you couldn't. Risk of explosion. You may as well call it the Hindenbot!

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The magnet thing is tricky, the scales don't take into account the additional down force of the magnets, which does increase the robot's weight.

I think it's a neat solution, if a little sneaky.......

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Well you could measure the down force. Just stick iron underneath the weighing platform.

I think it's ungallant. Using it as in 540, to stop people flipping you, enhancing your pushing ability & to resist the opposite reaction of the spinner is IMHO unsportsmanly.

Then the war of attrition will start. more down force will be added until the apparent weight of these robots are superheavyweight

Helium wouldn't work, so little upforce that it's pointless.

Magnets as far as i'm concerned aren't a problem. There should possibly be a few rules writing about safety with them but I don't see a problem with their use. You can talk all you want about unfair advantages but then in my opinion having no weapon on your robot gives you an unfair advantage as you can use more of the weight of your machine for armour.

You would never be able to use more than the magnets that 540 will be using as the motors, speedos, batteries etc have to be upgraded to be able to handle the extra strain of the additional weight so no you would never get a superheavyweight type machine in the featherweight class. I say it's just being creative with the environment you are fighting in, i could equally say that a wedge running along the ground gives you an unfair advantage but that's always been accepted.

O and sticking iron under the weighing platform would do little to nothing as the magnets force is applied over a relatively short distance.

@ Woody

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I didn't disagree did I ? .........

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Sorry misunderstood.

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Eventually... after DM regularly trashes the oppostion... this loophole in the rules will be closed.

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DM?

@ psychostorm

HindenBot! I love it.

The magnet things is interesting, but you do have a point, the magnets will add their own weight, plus the robot being heavier (due to the magnet's pull) means it'll have to be more powerful to be able to move itself around. So there are trade offs, whether these equate to not having magnets I don't know.

How about you put polar opposite magnets in your own robot that repel the others! Brain = melt.

now you're going into the realms of trollscience http://trollscience.com/troll/view/1255

haha, brilliant!

DM ...David Moulds ... Mouldy

AKA... me.

Ive got magnets in my new featherweight as seen here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coeZuPhgXec

rules of safety regarding droping the robot on your feet etc? .... Come on your not that stupid? If you drop any featherweight on your foot etc its gonna hurt....

And should we ban all magnets? like the ones in your drive motors?

Theres nothing in the rules saying magnets carnt be used... and im not the first person to of done it.... i dont break the rules i bend them :)

Also - its easy to weigh 540- just balance it on the scales so the magnets not facing down... the magnetic field isnt that large, and it deffinetly wont effect anyones radio signal.. my RX is mounted 40mm away from the magnet... and its litrally touching my sidewinder.

And yeah- suppose 360 could be classed as a hover bot.... but not intentionaly... so who cares....audience love it.

Come on guys stop rule bashing.... if theres nothing saying you carnt do it... think outside the box and give it ago.. instead of trying to stop other people making things more interesting.

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Originally Posted by mr_turbulence

AKA... me.

Ive got magnets in my new featherweight as seen here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coeZuPhgXec

rules of safety regarding droping the robot on your feet etc? .... Come on your not that stupid? If you drop any featherweight on your foot etc its gonna hurt....

And should we ban all magnets? like the ones in your drive motors?

Theres nothing in the rules saying magnets carnt be used... and im not the first person to of done it.... i dont break the rules i bend them :)

Also - its easy to weigh 540- just balance it on the scales so the magnets not facing down... the magnetic field isnt that large, and it deffinetly wont effect anyones radio signal.. my RX is mounted 40mm away from the magnet... and its litrally touching my sidewinder.

And yeah- suppose 360 could be classed as a hover bot.... but not intentionaly... so who cares....audience love it.

Come on guys stop rule bashing.... if theres nothing saying you carnt do it... think outside the box and give it ago.. instead of trying to stop other people making things more interesting.

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what strength magents do you use (mind me asking)? but they are obviously strong :)

N45 Grade Neodymium 50x50x25mm

1mm base then 5mm ground clearance gives around 38kg of pull, plus the 12kg of robot and it works out to be around 50kg total robot downforce in weight.... not mass.

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surely that machine would breach the 30 pound weight limit as stipulated in the rules

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No, because that machine would still weigh 30lbs. Stick it on a set of scales with plastic surfaces (negating any magnetic pull, just for clarity) and it would still show 13.6kg. Okay so it would be harder to pull/lift up from the arena floor but that doesn't mean it weighs more (in terms of mass, rather than actual W=mg weight)

I agree with the comments that using magnets is simply making use of the arena environment (steel floor) in the same way as a ground-skimming wedge makes use of the arena environment (flat floor). If something is compromising the enjoyment or competitiveness of the sport, then by all means alter the arena environment to hinder it*
But I sincerely hope the rules aren't re-written to banish magnets; too often in this spobby rules have been re-written because someone has exploited a loop-hole (perhaps abroad more so than here), usually in ingenious ways. But rather than applaud and admire their ingenuity, the loop-hole is closed because there were murmers of unfair advantage.

*For example, the discussions about having an uneven surface to discourage wedges. However steel floors are still relatively new and presently only feature at Robo Challenge events, so not only has the utilisation of magnets been impossible until recently, but they can only be used at one or two events per year.

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Originally Posted by mr_turbulence

i dont break the rules i bend them :)

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I don't think you're breaking the rules or even bending them. It's within the rules and no-one else is prevented from using them. Safety rules in terms of stregnth of magnets?? ...............don't put two magnets together with your finger in between..........anything else? it's a sport where we abuse lipos which can be very nasty if abused and we use 65bar pneumatics etc etc so people should have some idea of any risks with magnets like...........erm........getting it stuck on your robot (Dave Weston springs to mind :lol:)

The only issue with magnets I see is that they're an entanglement device. So in freak situation where you get stuck on top of another robot then you are the entangler and you lose by default.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2PDAnKEu9M

This is what i mean when i talk about dangers. Seen a site a while back where a guy had one sitting on a wooden bench and it jumped a foot sideways crushing his fingers against a metal object at the end of the bench.

Just to reiterate, this was originally a quirky thread looking at the possibilities of putting helium inside a robot.....

I don't wanna start a fight!

Don't worry PJ, no fighting here :)
Just some decent discussion/debate. It's been a bit quiet on the forums lately so we're all just jumping at the chance to stick our teeth into something substantial.

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Originally Posted by PJ-27

Just to reiterate, this was originally a quirky thread looking at the possibilities of putting helium inside a robot.....

I don't wanna start a fight!

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Listen matey, I've just sent Gary £22 by paypal (and i genuinely have) I have paid for the full two page argument and that's what we'll be having :proud:

Tomorrow I'll probably start trying to tell kenny that mcdonalds chicken sandwich is far superior in quality to kfc chicken of any sort. That'll be a fun one.

he has :)

Incidentally KFC is superior

Now fast food! Be-jesus.

I'm sorry but nothing beats the Chicken Royale with cheese that's served up at Burger King :proud:

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Originally Posted by typhoon_driver

Magnets as far as I'm concerned aren't a problem. There should possibly be a few rules writing about safety with them but I don't see a problem with their use. You can talk all you want about unfair advantages but then in my opinion having no weapon on your robot gives you an unfair advantage as you can use more of the weight of your machine for armour.

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That tactic would come with a major inbuilt disadvantage - they'd have no damage points in the judges decisions. The wedge would have to contend with uneven floor. The magnets have the only problem:

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Originally Posted by widow_twanky

The only issue with magnets I see is that they're an entanglement device. So in freak situation where you get stuck on top of another robot then you are the entangler and you lose by default.

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They stick to the nearest piece with Iron in it.

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Originally Posted by typhoon_driver

You would never be able to use more than the magnets that 540 will be using as the motors, speedos, batteries etc have to be upgraded to be able to handle the extra strain of the additional weight so no you would never get a superheavyweight type machine in the featherweight class. I say it's just being creative with the environment you are fighting in, i could equally say that a wedge running along the ground gives you an unfair advantage but that's always been accepted.

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Technological progression, Gary. I'm not talking near future in my original statement.

Jamie, I was taught weight the force was the attraction of 2 objects (ie: robot & floor), which a magnet would muck up. I did forget that weight only included gravitational forces. So the rule confused me.

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Originally Posted by mr_turbulence

AKA... me.

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Hello, Mouldy. I've been looking forward to your posts.

Can I have a photo of 540's base with a colour paperclip on it? please? :proud:

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Originally Posted by mr_turbulence

rules of safety regarding dropping the robot on your feet etc? .... Come on your not that stupid? If you drop any featherweight on your foot etc its gonna hurt....

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Not as much as 38KG of magnet that refuses to turn over.
Besides never a question of stupid, more of clumsy. Some of us just aren't born with adequate motor functions. Think Steven Hawking stacking dishes.

More a question of insurance. If Mike can lose a finger to the weak force of gravity, imagine what a magnet will do. I would recommend steel toe caps but I doubt it would help. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by mr_turbulence

And should we ban all magnets? like the ones in your drive motors

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Not that I'm interested in a ban but necessity. The motors won't work without the magnets, your robots traction will.

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Originally Posted by mr_turbulence

Theres nothing in the rules saying magnets carnt be used...

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Nothing to say they can either. Rule 1.2, Mouldy & quick to it!

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Originally Posted by mr_turbulence

and im not the first person to of done it....

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In the UK? May I ask for the preceding machine. 360 & beta used magnets I know, beta was US and 360...

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Originally Posted by mr_turbulence

And yeah- suppose 360 could be classed as a hover bot.... but not intentionaly... so who cares....audience love it.

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That's the bit I like about these spinners - My dislike for magnets quite literally comes from stopping the fickle decider of gyroscopic forces.

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Originally Posted by mr_turbulence

if theres nothing saying you carnt do it...

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War of attrition invite.

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Originally Posted by mr_turbulence

think outside the box and give it ago.. instead of trying to stop other people making things more interesting.

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Nowt personal, Mouldy but most of the outside box designs I have had are stopped by the thought of fighting one of your spinners so let's not pick hairs on who is killing originality here.

I don't like it - it's just not cricket, old bean.

Does any one know if the robo challenge floor is held down? other than gravity?

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Originally Posted by PJ-27

I don't wanna start a fight!

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If you don't want to be a fight, you may be in the wrong hobby.

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Originally Posted by widow_twanky

Listen matey, I've just sent Gary £22 by paypal (and i genuinely have) I have paid for the full two page argument and that's what we'll be having :proud:

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Is this the hour or just the five minutes?

if you have a problem with magnets then don't attend the events with the metal floor :P

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Originally Posted by PJ-27

I don't wanna start a fight!

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Originally Posted by psychostorm

If you don't want to be a fight, you may be in the wrong hobby.

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I don't think he meant in the arena i think he meant between you guys

Come on guys stop rule bashing.... if there's nothing saying you cant do it... think outside the box and give it ago.. instead of trying to stop other people making things more interesting.


I Have to agree with this, as the more diverse the designs the more interesting the sport. Seraph is about 500mm high 1100mm long and 850mm wide for a feather weight robot it is quite big. Because the rules don't have a maximum dimension for feathers. this means there is a different type of design that works in the arena, (Lets get rid of some of the tin snails and make something fun!) last year Seraph won the annihilator competition (just!). So it can be done, Or just copy Seraph I won't mind :mrgreen:

Craig has a point, you could just put magnets in your robot if you don't like others having them.

From what I could tell Newton's Third law (equal and opposite forces) was the only enemy of the spinner, but the magnets change all that!

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From what I could tell Newton's Third law (equal and opposite forces) was the only enemy of the spinner, but the magnets change all that!

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Lol magnets can't change the laws of physics :) All that changes is that the spinner isn't thrown across the arena. It actually puts more stress into the spinner robot. If it hits a solid object such as the arena sidewall then more of the energy of the impact will be sent back through the chassis rather than sending the robot flying away.

As Scotty in Star Trek said, you can't break the laws of physics captain.......before he started up the warp engine...... :uhoh:

I'm planning on using magnets in my next vertical spinner but there's a very good reason for that. Did the calculations and it will experience a 30kg upthrust on one wheel and down thrust on the other if it turns hard on the spot. Basically i need the magnets or it will be completely uncontrollable......more so...... but to this end i will be designing wheels and shafts that have to take a total loading of around 80kg. A pain in the proverbial!

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Lol magnets can't change the laws of physics :) All that changes is that the spinner isn't thrown across the arena.

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It was the throwing I was referring too, which the magnet help stop. But yeh, the full impact force then isn't dissipated by movement of the spinner.

Can't anyone else see this is going to kill most originality
dead?

If the spinners get magnets, they will be able to exert a greater percentage of force into its opponents. The response will no doubt be heavier weaponless armoured boxes.

Then you will have armoured Rambots sticking themselves to the floor, spinners sticking themselves to the floor & robots too tall for either to hit. A situation that could only favour the spinners in the long run.

Fast track to US combat.

I'm not against magnets - I intend on building an axe myself so a magnetwould come handy in the long run. Just saying.

I would say the thing that influences design in robots is not so much the rule set, as the arena design.
If the arena floor is made from a stainless steel that is none magnetic, no robots would have magnets fitted as the other arenas have wooden floors,
If the arena had higher sides the flippers would not reign supreme! You get the idea, also with regard to spinners what was the highest they got last year at the champs I think it was 4th. and that was the old drum roll bonner I think that's it's name.
If we end up with armour boxes winning everything, it is down to the EOs to do something about the environment were the fights take place, I'm sure they will keep a handle on this, no one wants boring fights. :uhoh: :uhoh:

The only people that will be using magnets effectively are the people that can build good enough robots to take the forces the magnets put on there own machine and the people that complain will be the ones that can't build a good enough machine. Robots have to evolve or it's going to get very boring. Say 540 wins the uk champs it then forces people to find a way to try beat a robot that effectively weighs 50kg once it's in the arena. Once you get under a robot with a magnet for every 1mm you get it's magnet away from the floor it dramatically reduces the pull the magnet has on the floor, if you manage to flip it upside down it's just a regular 13kg robot.

Craig, it was 3rd place and it was called boner ;)

Oops :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

We have to get a spinner on the podium again make it 3 years running

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Originally Posted by psychostorm

Can't anyone else see this is going to kill most originality
dead?

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Understand what you're saying, just don't agree.

Had a similar discussion with Craig at Whitwick about limiting axes force and hardness of axe heads etc etc. It's really the same argument that the rules limit the sizes and extent of what you can use. Big magnet, big weight, cannot use that weight elsewhere so the power is reduced of the active weapon or the armour has to be weaker etc etc. Our discussion was about Thor and how bigger ram and harder axe head meant dealing with bigger forces in the robot. Did smile next day when thors axe arm broke but resisted the temptation to say 'told you so' :proud: .

I disagree with being prescriptive with the rules. It's not always the case that the best robot wins. I wouldn't put Team Shocks robots in the precision engineering/massive flipper category (well, until Will gets that new one working with the stupid sized ram in it) BUT they have an effective weapon and are driven very well same with Tiny Toon really, by all accounts it should be a sitting duck for a big flipper like beauty 2 yet it won the uk champs because of some excellent driving. 360 on the other hand is an awesome robot which is constantly pushing the boudaries of what we do. As a result something breaks quite often in it but it's still fantastic to see it. Now, knowing that, what do you do? Limit the people who push the boudaries and spend the money on developing stuff like brushless spinners so everyone else can copy? Go out and practice driving in the knowledge that with a half decent robot you have a chance of taking home the uk championship? or do you whine about magnets?

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Originally Posted by widow_twanky

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Originally Posted by psychostorm

Can't anyone else see this is going to kill most originality
dead?

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360 on the other hand is an awesome robot which is constantly pushing the boudaries of what we do. As a result something breaks quite often in it but it's still fantastic to see it. Now, knowing that, what do you do? Limit the people who push the boudaries and spend the money on developing stuff like brushless spinners so everyone else can copy? Go out and practice driving in the knowledge that with a half decent robot you have a chance of taking home the uk championship? or do you whine about magnets?

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Couldnt agree more...

I love how when i build something new to try and make things a bit more interesting someone always moans about it :rofl: ...

Basically ceri... your saying by making a robot with a new type of technology in it im making robots LESS diverse? Hmm...

Just like i did by bringing brushless into spinner technology.... Bringing in a complete new generation of spinners, making the competition much tougher...

To be honest i dont care about anyones opinion, bar the EOs :) I dont see the point in making a robot unless its going to push the boundarys.... 360 was in a leuge of its own when it came out... And i hope 540 does the same for pusher technology. Or would you prefer if i made a steel box with drill motors and sla's in it just to keep the technology level the same as it has been for the last 10 years?

I remember it different.
I thought we were discussing the amount of gas that flippers had and if this was limited we would have lp flippers that could flip lots of times and hp flippers that could get you OOTA but had limited flips.
but we could have discussed Thor too, I can't remember much now. But in the end you won the argument anyway :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: