I realise this topic may be close to a number of people on this forum so it seems right to discuss :). Was the government right to raise fees to 6000 and possibly up to 9000 in England? What are your thoughts on the protests in London and elsewhere?
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I realise this topic may be close to a number of people on this forum so it seems right to discuss :). Was the government right to raise fees to 6000 and possibly up to 9000 in England? What are your thoughts on the protests in London and elsewhere?
I didnt go to uni nor am i going to, but the thing thats annoyed me the most, and i think most others is that one of the main reasons so many people/students voted for him is because he said if he got elected he would abolish student fees so its like how scotland has it. and now hes basically gone back on what he said and its just stupid if he ever goes on one of his random 'try to look good in the public eye' trips to a uni or something- well good luck to him.
From what little faith i had in the government before well theres pretty much non left anymore, i've still never voted and i don't think i ever will because non of them live in the real world
didnt tak the goverment too long to go back on there promises ........
Should have stuck with labour at least they were on the right track .....
now we have to go back to the thatcher days .....
Pickets and strike on there way ...... good old conservatives ....
Now this I can contribute to a bit more effectively than my Wikileaks discussion contribution :P
First thing I want to say is that I've always been happy to be a student and part of a collective group when 'students' are mentioned overall. But watching the scenes unfold over the past week or so in London and elsewhere made me feel ashamed and embarrassed to ever have been associated with the student community. There is nothing wrong with a strong but PEACEFUL protest but there is absolutely no reason for the mindless destruction that has gone on. It's been widely reported now that several people involved aren't actually students and are just joining in for the sake of rampaging through the streets. Credit where credit is due though, many students were there to protest peacefully and several students interviewed said they condemned the behaviour of the 'mob'.
On to the actual details; momentarily taking out of the equation the fact that Nick Clegg reneged on his manifesto 'promise', it's difficult to say if the government decision is the correct one. On one hand, universities all across the country are suffering budget cuts due to the financial situation and if funding declines, generally so do the standards. On the other hand, raising the max cap on fees will allow the universities to charge more and therefore get more money into their institution, somewhat bridging the financial gap that is going to appear, if it hasn't already. Personally, I don't think it's fair that the students have to foot the bill for this one (except the bill for repairing all the protest damage) but realistically for the situation that the country is in, the government decision could be the most logical at this time.
I don't know if I feel less passionate about this issue because I'm Scottish and therefore had my fees paid for me but I don't understand the hatred towards Nick Clegg at the level it has been. He's a politician, and a politician's job is to make fanciful claims during the election run-up and then not fulfil them when in power. I can understand some dislike/hatred directed at him but, to be honest, are you surprised by his decision?
The Scottish National Party were voted into power (albeit a minority) up here in 2007, partly due to large support from students based on several pledges they made. If I counted on my hands every manifesto pledge they've either ditched or reneged on, I'd run out of fingers pretty quickly, but despite that there has not been anywhere near the same level of raw anger directed towards them as there has to Clegg over this one decision. I'm not condoning his choice to backtrack on his promise though; I voted Lib Dem in May because I didn't want the Tories in, Gordon Brown didn't fill me with confidence (Ed Miliband does though) and Nick Clegg talked a good game and I have to admit I'm disappointed both by the Lib Dems agreeing a coalition and Clegg's recent actions, but hey, you have to live with your choices. Roll on 2014/15
My 2p, for what it's worth
in my opinion the policing has been wrong theshould use a no nonsense policy and fight back against the skin head opportunist thugs causing the trouble.
I have always had a very strong alignment with the tories financial policies, the idea of a smaller cost effective state with low taxation has been very attractive to me. As time has gone by and with some life experience I found myself buying into labours social policies in a big way. The assistance given to families with disabilities, the sure start programmes for underpriveliged children, the widespread upgrading and rebuilding of our schools and the increased provisions for children with special educational needs are all issues which I can say Labour have done well with and i would happily pay more tax to keep going. The problem was always they spent too much money doing it with way too much beurocracy.
I always saw the lib dems as taking the middle ground between the two and was actually cautiously optimistic when they went into coalition with the tories. I would not have expected the tories to do anything but what they are doing. It is what they stand for and it is what you sign up to when you vote for them. I was kind of hoping that the lib dems would be a moderating influence on them. Looking at the numbers the simple fact is that had all the lib dems said no then the government would not have won this vote.
What really irritates me is not the fact that the policy will be implemented (supposing that the lords don't make any ammendments and if they do then all the other potential votes go the governments way) it is the denial of breaking a pledge which was clearly made. I just feel that if you find yourself in a position where you've got to make a difficult decision you should say so. You should not do a cable and deny that you broke your intial pledge, you should not try and manipulate things by trying to negotiate that all the lib dems will abstain in the knowledge that the vote will be won anyway by you doing that, thus making it look better and allowing you to say you didn't vote for it, you should not tell everyone two days before the vote about the concessions for 'the poorest' families. You should stand up and be a man and say 'i know this is unpopular but we've got to do it'.
The main problem i see is the arse covering which is going on. The trying to score political points and to save face. In a recession we need strong leadership. Thatcher was strong. Thatcher destroyed various industries and ruined many peoples lives but at least there was a direction allowing businesses to plan even for the worst. She said very clearly she would sell the country down the swanny and that's just what she did.
The fees issue has simply shown me that the current government is weak. The lib dems are eeven weaker and are utterly spineless against its senior party. Ther are no real clearly defined policies about to be delivered, as a result there will be no clearly defined direction which means there will be no ability for businesses to try and predict what is likely to happen so they will not be able to plan properly.
Put simply, sod the students. The weakness and ineptitude the government has shown in dealing with this issue highlights far more problems for everyone and should be seen as a tolling bell for the rest of us. I will be very surprised if we are clearly out of this recession by the time the next election comes around.
Love her or loath her at least Maggie had balls unlike any of the modern lot.
Obviously the new fees won't affect me, (Scotland in my final year) but I believe that the U-turn by the lib dems will relegate the party to the fringes once again. I think Nick Clegg has seriously underestimated just how much distrust this will create towards politicians in general, not just his own party. The student vote will be lost but I can also see many other voters wondering if they should bother voting for the lib dems.
With regard to the actual fees, sure students won't start paying it off until they earn 21K but then the whole point of going to uni is to to come out with better qualifications, get a better job and hopefully start off earning a decent wage. It's a complete and utter farse especially considering that other parts of the UK, Europe and the World manage to get by without charging extortionate fees.
O and I couldn't help but laugh at the surprise of the police, PM and royals when the demonstrations got violent, perhaps they should have looked back at previous marches when unpopular laws policies were passed
One of the main reasons I am actually against tuition fees is because no-one has actually looked at how this will affect mortgages etc. I have a personal loan which is over five years and this got taken into consideration when i bought my flat and the amount i could borrow was reduced to suit.
No take someone on £21,000 looking for a cheap house and maybe one of the very few still at around £70k. They go to their prospective borrower and say hey there i eran just enough to have this house but i've got this £40k debt which I have to pay off for the next 30 years. Quite sure the response will be, tell ya what we'll take 3.5 times your salary and then take £40k off it so go find summat for £30k :angry:.
Not sure how it works but I'm quite sure that the government don't now how it'll work and the banks proably have no idea either. Are we likely to have an entire generation of students condemed (mispelling and pun intended) promised the earth, worked hard to achieve what they do and then penalised for it. Worse still making it even harder for first time buyers means that there is less of a stimulus for the housing market....................
Point being, it should be well thought through which it isn't.
Andy
With fees the first question to ask is,
What type of society do I want?
You can go for the American way of paying for it all. the richer you are the better the education gets.
I always remember the line in one of the Jurassic Park films. Be careful this suit cost more than your education
Or do we want a system were the money your family had doesn't matter so much. but this means others would have to pick up the tab for the privilege of those going to university.
the argument for this point of view is the number of graduates help enrich the whole community including those who provided for the university place. e.g. you go to the doctors who were trained in the UK at university.
Yes maggie had the balls ......
And what did she do with them .....
Shut and closed down the biggest industry and job supplier in the UK ( THE PITS ).....
So i suppose the Uni's will be shut next then .......
The Pits had a very strong Union which supported the lowest honest working man with more power than any Government which Maggie crushed along with the working man .....
The Student union is threatening the same action .......
All i can say is watch out ......
2nd choice everytime Craig. The major problem was Labour saying that 50% of young people should get a degree. A good chunk of jobs don't need one and you end up with a flood of people towards unis devaluing the degrees already around.
Ha NUS are a bunch of useless muppets. Nothing to fear from that union. The fear as far as the government should be concerned comes when a large number of students decided to mobilise using modern technology to communicate. Flash demonstrations and mass demonstrations organised with only a weeks notice could cause huge disruption to any city.
I went to uni, paying just over £3000 a year on fee's.
I think the rise in fee's is a good thing, hopefully making most the useless muppets who go to uni think twice about going!
At the moment, the majority of degree's are now utter useless. Purely because of 1) they are so easy to get into, 2) half the degress only require something stupid like 12hours a week, and 3) its so cheap and easy to get into uni with all the money being handed out.
I dont agree with any of the comments about it effecting the poorer community - Why would it? My parents didnt pay for my tuition, student loan's paid that - which i pay back personally. I think they need to make University harder to get into, and offer money off the tuition fee's the better you do. That would be an incentive for people to actually do some work! Maybe then a degree might be worth something.
The miners strike is one which is very interesting when you look at the history and I believe that it was driven by a massive amount of ideology (cutting subsidies etc) as is the current issue with student fees.Quote:
Originally Posted by botmad
If you look at what thatcher did:
1979 got elected
1980 introduced laws restricting provision of welfare benefits to strikers families where their dependents took a compulsory reduction in their benefits and were banned from receiving ugrent needs payments
1982 (ish) -1984 stockpiling of coal at uk power stations
1984 pit closures announced
It was a cynical well planned attack on the miners and the miners leaders did not see it coming because they had a significant bavado after almost bringing the country to its knees in 1974 (3day week and all)
Putting aside the rights and wrongs of that strike, the government had it well thought out and had planned in significant detail what they were going to do and had probably considered most of the options of what eventually happened.
In the current situation I see a policy driven simply by the conservative ideology. I do not see substantial consideration of the consequences. I do not see strong leadership.
Pete you are very right to say watch out but i suspect that there are already a large number of people who have been hit already. Redundancies at barnet council happened at the beginning of december. This was 25% of the total staff and it didn't even hit the local paper!!!
I'd suggest that demonstrations are relatively easy for a government to deal with in the long term. it doesn't take long for them to work out who to monitor and how to deal with things. The other thing is that there is a great tendancy in the media for them to simply publicise the violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoon_driver
Now if the large numbers of students were to mobilise and register to vote, now that'd send a chill down their spine!! Voter turnout at the last general election was about 65%. Not sure how many 18-25's voted this time but in 2005 it was about 37%.
The government has been niaive to think that the argument that we now live in an age of austerity will wash for the extent of what is happening and that the general public will sit by and watch people being crushed without comment. Student fees are a good distraction from the redundancies being made in local councils, the cancellation of the building schools for the future programme (crushing large parts of the construction industry) and so on.
andy wrote :
The government has been niaive to think that the argument that we now live in an age of austerity will wash for the extent of what is happening and that the general public will sit by and watch people being crushed without comment. Student fees are a good distraction from the redundancies being made in local councils, the cancellation of the building schools for the future programme (crushing large parts of the construction industry) and so on.
I think we should all take a look past the fees increase and see what else they are upto behind this smokescreen ..........
how is it a good thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by grant_ploughbot
The vat is going up,food price are going up,so that will mean less money to spend on uni fee's. And if you do get a loan you are going to have to pay back so much more! If they want a job with no degres thery are going to get low pay jobs which older people will want because there are not many jobs about at are current state. If I go to uni at the rate now I will have to pay about 12000 to 20000 !
Theo
And there is the lie which has become 'reality' over the time of the labour government. I never did my degree until i was about 28 and i did it then because i wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder arrow
I had this discussion with zach recently that you get paid well by working hard and normally if you do something to the best of your abilities then opportunities start to present themselves. Opportunity never walked in anyones front room and presented itself whilst someone was sat on their watching the jeremy kyle show. The point is you have to do SOMETHING!!
This applies to anyone. Irrespective of the legnth of education and irrespective of whether they can even spell the word degree or not!! :proud: :proud:
Its all bolotics !!!
I have never voted, and probably never will.... they are all a bunch of liars.... and once again its been proven.
Some say you cant moan if you dont vite, but i refuse to vote for someone i dont believe in, from what I understand, ( not much ) labour were set to raise the fees anyway, but now are trying to cover it up..
Hate politics, always have, always will..... they should make me priminister !! :rofl:
The reason why my educational projects are so popular, and why I'm heavily involved with organisations such as Aim Higher and Setpoint is because of my history.
I started not wanting to go to UNI, did an apprenticeship, then decided I wanted to go to UNI, so studied a BTEC aswell at the same time. Went to UNI... loved it.... worked my placement year at NISSAN as a designer.... started RR for a year didn€™t go back. Year later went back and finished my degree aswell as running RR.
i don€™t necessarily use my degree now, but Nissan offered me a job, which I wouldn€™t have got without UNI, turned it down to do RR. But I know if i ever want to get a €œproper job€Â, I can because of my degree, a degree opens doors !!!
I always recommend people to go to UNI... changes your life, and makes you grow up. The fact is, its going to cost, but you just have to not think about it, as they wont ask you to pay it back straight away, and if you are paying it back it means your in a good job anyway !!
I think the damage and protests are stupid... what a bunch of *******ers !!
Welcome to reality mate. Even with my tuition fees paid for up here, I'm awaiting my next statement from the Student Loans Company informing me that my debt is now around £15,000.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder arrow
Thing is though, you don't start making repayments on that until you're earning above £15,000 a year; small repayments if you're in a low-paid job, larger repayments in a higher-earning job. And because of your time spent at university and your qualifications, you are capable of coming out into a job around, say, the £22,000 mark, and if you work hard that salary can easily rise, so paying off the loan isn't too difficult financially (provided you don't blow your wages willy-nilly) even though it may take a while.
Grant makes an interesting point about higher fees maybe rooting out the useless muppets. Maybe if we paid fees up here, I would've dropped out/been kicked out of uni a good few years back, because I simply didn't work hard enough (numerous resits resulted in me taking five years to gain what is effectively a three-year qualification). I wasn't really mature enough and didn't really appreciate my position until the final year that I was there and that's when I started working harder and getting better results/gaining a better understanding of the subject matter. It was also, incidentally, my final year that I was surrounded by a group of friends who balanced out the socialising side of things with just as much studying in the lead up to exams, whereas previous years I hung out with folk who spent more time in the union than anywhere else. I don't blame them for me failing stuff, that was my fault, but just the difference in mindset that is gained from having study-minded people around is clearly evident.
Again, something I took my time to realise at uni! Got through first year without really studying much, unintentionally took a similar approach in second year and it all dive-bombed from there :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by widow_twanky
But it was a learning experience to say the least, and even though I was sick of my course after a couple of years, I started enjoying it again towards the end and the idea of going back in a few years and getting another degree in something else (tempted by robotics and cybernetics) is starting to appeal to me :crazy:
A reduction in fees for better marks sounds great until you think about the real world.
So I walk out of university with a 3rd class bachelors having the full wack of my fees, lets say 30grand plus another 10 for living through uni. Great, except most employers say they need a 2:1 minimum........ Ok so I'm then left paying through the teeth in most likely a dead end Mcjob because I didn't get the grades.
On the flip side, I walk out with a first, walk into a high paying graduate job and am able to pay off my much smaller loan in a far quicker time
Not entirely fair now is it?
The other problem with raising up fees is that you are saddled with a huge debt leaving university. Ok so we will use the same 40 grand debt figure as before. You go to a bank and ask for a mortgage. Ok says the bank, we will give you a mortgage of 3 and a half times your wage (lets say it's at the 20k mark), O but wait you have a 40k debt already? Ok lets subtract that from the amount we will give you in a mortgage and if you sign on the dotted line we will get you the 30K. Not many houses going for that kind of cash nowadays :).
A hugely simplified version of events but no one has considered whether the banks will take a huge debt into account when it comes to loans etc in the future. Having a huge loan may cripple your chances of home ownership from the get go.
A 'graduate job' ....... an excuse to give a few smart-arses something to do.
Let them get their degree by earning the money for it 1st - experience of the real world will do them the power of good.
What I want to know is....... why can I not learn vocational skills? I am over 19 and don't have a job therefore not eligible for either an apprenticeship (fast track or otherwise) or NVQs. Adult education nowadays give me the choice of 101 methods of 'holistic therapy' but absolutely nothing to help me get new skills to find a bloody job!
Thanks, I'll make sure to keep this in mind when I start my graduate job in September.Quote:
A 'graduate job' ....... an excuse to give a few smart-arses something to do
don't care!!!!!!! :proud: :proud:Quote:
Originally Posted by widow_twanky
and typing on a iPod touch is hard when u r half asleep!!!!!!!!!!
...as I will keep it in mind when I sign on that, despite all my years of skills and experiences, I would dearly love to have a job handed to me on a plate instead of having to fight tooth and nail what precious little there is.
I dont get that bit, who's handed their job on a plate?
On gary's point of it not sounding fair if someone who gets a lower level of degree having to pay more of a loan, and those that do better paying less - My view is that it's perfectly fair. If your that desperate to get a good job (which is the whole point of getting in debt and spending another 3-5 years of your life in education) then its up to you to put that extra effort in to make sure it happens. Good things come to those who put in the time and effort to hget somewhere.
I left uni late in the second year due to having surgery - So I didnt end up graduating. But now, I have less debt (well, still 18k for 2 years) and I;ve now turned down 2 very good job offer's from work i've done outside of uni to carry on with Robo Challenge. I'm now contracted 1 day a week by another company for a good wage due to the work I've also done outside of uni.
It seem's to me that in most case's the degree is now not really worth much. It's all about experience and how you present yourself.
That might change when the student fee's rise, as hopefully you wont get the idiot's turn up because it's easier to sign upto uni that go to work (which I knew alot of people at uni like that).
It's like EMA, i've been hoping since I left school that they would get rid of that - unfair paying some people and not others.
The fact is people aren't employed out of some sort of social charitable attitude on the count of the employer. we are employed to either save money or make money.
Education and experience increases a persons employability, because used in the correct way that persons skill and knowledge will make the employer more money than it costs the employer to employ you.
A good Degree is a marketable asset in the workplace so the salary of a degree educated person will be higher. but the market for employment is not even, some industries are coming more into play and so more money for wages is made available. Also there is a shortage of certain skills the price for those skills goes up. for example a bricklayer may earn £18 per hour and a plumber earn £35 per hour, there skill may be of a similar level but the plumber earns more because they are in greater demand. The trick is to have the right qualifications and skills at the right time and in the right place...........................................Si mple :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I started uni 2 and abit months ago and so far its been fantastic!!
i agree with some of the points made about some courses been very easy and students having very little work to do. id just like to point out that my course Bsc Product Design (often refereed to as industrial design) is around a 40hr a week course mixing working in uni, lectures and working away from uni.
i too thought long and hard about whether or not to go to uni. but my end job 'desire' product designer the only option is uni
my course is a 4 year sandwich course and for those not aware, that menas 2 years at uni then a year in industry (hopefully paid) then a final year before graduation
tbh i dont accept the comment A 'graduate job' ....... an excuse to give a few smart-arses something to do , the idea of uni is to go there get an education that real life or a normal job could possibly offer, after that you have to fight for jobs like mad. how many stories did we hear of early this year about graduates unable to find jobs clearly its not easy .....
Oh yes - EMA's.... I nearly choked when I found out what that was about :crazy:
with ema i've always said, everyone or non at all.
when i was at college i only got £10 out of the possible £30 and in my group everyone who got the £30 were essentially scumbags who only turned up to college for the money, and completly ruined it for everyone else who wanted to go and learn something, so with ema gone, they'l just go back to selling drugs or whatever, sounds harsh but i've met some total idiots in my time who i'd normally not even give the time of day to.
as for plumbers on 35 an hour and being in high demand - at the minute anyway thats really not the case. Every plumber i've met at work says how this will be the only job they've got on and its the worst they've ever seen it- but it was that line that lead me down the path of doing plumbing at college for a year and then end up not being able to get any job what so ever. Construction at the minute is completly dead, im working as a tiler and get paid litterally peanuts because of how things are at the moment. But then thats another thing people say they are going to university to get comeout and get a better job and to get better money but a tiler who used to sub to us, before the recession was putting 47 grand a year through his books and that wouldn't have been all his earnings either so you don't have to necesserally go to uni to come out with job that will pay well.
True point. For anyone reading this thread who's contemplating uni v no uni, just because you don't/didn't go to uni doesn't mean you can't end up in a well-paid job. Some of the wealthiest and most successful people around never had an extended education. In fact a lot of them say they left school at 16. Okay, so some of them found a gap in the market needing filled and saw very quick success but the others built up large organisations from small foundations. Anything is possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by calumco
I think the whole EMA issue highlights exactly what I was saying in this. The idea that children from underprivilged families should be provided with adequate funding to go into higher education is IMO a sound one. There are a lot of kids that really do benefit from this who would otherwise not have the opportunity to go on to secondary education. It is cheaper or at least the same cost as going on the dole. The problem is simply that people who are not seriously studying can either sit at home getting nothing or go to college. Making someone turn up to college does not make them a student. Essentially what started as a good well intentioned idea ended up being a trap for young people who had nothing else and no ambition to get off their backsides to look for anything else. EMA for serious courses for serious people in need of assistance I would be supportive of but not the current system. (problem with that statement is I don't really see much value in arts courses so where do you draw the line?)Quote:
Originally Posted by widow_twanky
As far as adult education and student fees etc I personally believe it should be free (within limits....say first degree etc) and paid for through general taxation. The idea of a graduate tax, fees etc works on the basis that you pay for it yourself. So add a penny on income tax (see lib dems previous manifestos :proud: ) and make it free. The point being is that if it really is true that a degree will give you a higher income then you will automatically pay more tax. No brainer in my opinion except that those who had a grant, free fees etc etc would then have to pay more tax so there would be serious objection from those more likely to vote. :proud: :proud:
A very valid point is that training for out, then went to do work study (yep the one you see in carry on films with the stop watches)adults to change careers, gain qualifications should be given a higher priority. Between 1970 and now I know of people who have had numerous different careers. One guy started as a tool and cutter grinder which died out, then did work study which died out, then did summat else i can't remember and then ended up in IT. The world changes and the idea of a job for life has gone. Industries die out and people need to retrain. The training courses which are on offer for the unemployed are simply pathetic. I can think of nothing worse than being unemployed for six months and then being told to go on an IT skills training course (which has happened to a chartered engineer i know). It works on the basis that people are unemployed because they are both uneducated and uneducatable (me thinks i'll stop now because I've started making up words :rofl: :rofl: )