Team Torque and Roaming Robots

Dear all.


There are so many stories out there as to why Team Torque is not at any Roaming Robots events thats its now time to have a show and tell.

A while ago a few roboteers were trying to help one of their fellow roboteers and some parts were taken without Jonnos permission. As can be seen, its a plain case of non communication to Jonno.

AS he himself states he would have said yes however, nobody asked him. When the mistake was found out it was rectified quickly however, Jonno still thinks that miss deeds, theft etc had taken place. He banned 2 members of the team from his events and even after a few months and a few people asking him if he was sure about his course he was asked if he wanted the FRA to look into this matter. He did. Mike Hamilton-Macy was appointed the task of looking into this with a FULL Code of Conduct. His report is posted on our website. Link at the bottom. ALL emails etc are included. Please note that the report has been added to by Kane and that this contradicts Mikes findings.

We as a team are not happy to have to take this route. The report was supposed to be confidential until after the meeting but parts have been leaked. As can be seen, its in Jennys favour. Team Torque has kept quiet for a while in the vain hope that it would be sorted out in both a timely and a correct manner. To our dismay this has not happened.

I would like to ask how Roaming Robots can hold any UK championship fights whilst a team has been excluded? The team did not receive the email invitation even though other teams who do not even have a heavyweight robot did. This team has been exonerated by the FRA so its exclusion goes against the FRA.

To answer a point that Swanny made regarding Geoff and him not doing anything or being permitted to attend a lot of the events, well, its because the FRA has done such a good job in the past that safety has been greatly inproved and very little, if any reporting has been required and being banned from RR events is not his fault.

Please see http://www.pillowtorque.com/investigation for the COMPLETE report, an announcement and the complete set of emails.

Mike.

At long last. now the community can read everything for themselves. The FRA needed a good shake up. Not that i think anything will change much. Karoline i am sad your loyalities have forced you to resign. Remember you have of course resigned from an existing FRA which was put together full of governing body members that dont use the forum and are silent most of the time anyway. Its in a real mess is what people are saying........i say it was in a real mess anyway and all this coming to light will clear the air. I always wanted transparency with everything that went on with the FRA as it is after all an organisation for us roboteers.

A fresh new start wouldnt be a bad thing. I am glad it has all gone breasts up cos now maybee people will do something and build on what has been all but destroyed.

The suggestion that John Bell be a puppet is a bad statment.

Saying that there are plenty of bad statments. Sad really.

If the FRA folds no worries. I will still go to events and fight my robot. After all thats what its all about for me and not bollatics.


The sport will carry on FRA or no FRA

a new year, a new argument - same old thing happens on this forum lol

see you in barnsley

p.s beast will be on fire in barnsley

I dont normally liek replying to things like this, but this time I feel theres actually a need too. This by the way is my own opinion (and facts) and not in anyway discussed with james or anything to do with the views of Robo Challenge.

Quote:

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To answer a point that Swanny made regarding Geoff and him not doing anything or being permitted to attend a lot of the events, well, its because the FRA has done such a good job in the past that safety has been greatly inproved and very little, if any reporting has been required and being banned from RR events is not his fault.

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I agree with swanny on this - Geoff is banned from RR events for his and Jennys own doings (whatever the situation, a robot was taken without permission and attempted to be sold - that in any book IS theft). Over all the years, Geoff has NEVER attended a Robo Challenge event. For whatever this reason may be, the safeety officer should have some need to attend the UK's only Full combat events to ensure full safety is always adhered too.
Geoff and Karoline were incharge of grading Craig Danby's arena this year. There were two attempts at grading the arena - both outcomes were absolubtely totaly incorrect and immediatly should have gotten other FRA members to assess the arena for the next time. The event was allowed to run as Full combat and graded with some franckly insane safety issues.


At the same event Geoff also tech-checked a robot running li-po batteries, and didnt check even a single point on the safety regulations for running these batteries. As the Safety officer at the time, I find that descracefull and woud not want something like that ever to happen at anyones event.

Regarding the UK Championships, the FRA should have contacted all event organisers by noew to put their proposals in, to be voted on by the commitee. This has not happened so i dont blame Jonno for trying to move things on. Leave it much later and there wont be a chance to organise one!

*EDIT - Also to add, Recent events have had some serious safety issues which should immediatly have been picked up by the FRA, that have been let to continue for a while . An example of this would the the very large gaps in the top corners of the RR arenaat the UK champs finals this year. They are big enough to put your head through. Each event is supposed to be checked and a form filled out to make sure everything is correct. This should have been picked up on and Jonno notified. I am not saying Jonno is not to blame in any way, but the FRA safety officer, whoever it may be should have made sure the problems were rectified.

I lol so much about all the robotics politics (copyright) in the uk.

Why can't you guys just all go back to standing around the weight scales with your toes beneath the scales to get a 3-way feather beneath the 100 kg weight limit and just have a good time ?

This reply was without reading that fra statement majiggy by the way, so I'm not responding to that, but to robopolics in uk in general.

Hi people, a few observations:
No attempt was made to sell the robot parts that were taken.
That was never the intention.
I don't know where you got your information from Grant but it is false.
The issues that have come to light are about problems between individuals not the FRA.
The FRA will be open about this investigation, it is due for disscussion on the23rd and the findings and any actions decided upon will be published.
My report being published prior to this is a betrayal of trust and irresponsible.
It has already been misquoted.
While its true that some committee members do not post much on the forum it does not mean that they don't read it!
It is also true that there are a few committee members that have taken no part in disscusions or meetings since they have been elected.
The words pot, kettle and black come to mind.
I am in general agreement about the raised safety issues, we should do better.
Mike.

Hi All

There's quite a lot I don't intend to say at this point in time & it is not my position to do so.As a governing body member it is only right that I adhere to the request for confidentiallity asked of all of us linked to the investigation.As I've already posted now everybody knows exactly what has held up the presidential elections.

I do have some issues with certain statements suggesting I am a puppet & being controlled by an event organiser, and also the suggestion that I may be involved in manipulating the governing body for my own ends (I would remind you that it wasn't me who tried to force 13.6kg on the featherweights not that long ago - for my own ends).Yes a lot of damage has been done & friendships have been irreparably damaged - and this being done in this way has not helped matters at all.

There is 1 final point - I wish to refer to the list of emails which has been claimed are ALL the emails on the matter, I'm sorry but that statement is not true.For anybody reading the emails, my email to Geoff (no 12 I believe) must read as being completely out of the blue.So here is the email missing from their list, which will explain my response to Geoff.As you can see from the list of recipients it was not sent to all partiesinvolved:

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:11:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Smith <geoff_smith182@yahoo.com>
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Su

While its true that some committee members do not post much on the forum it does not mean that they don't read it!
It is also true that there are a few committee members that have taken no part in disscusions or meetings since they have been elected.
The words pot, kettle and black come to mind.


Mike i presume that was a little dig at yours truely there......to my defence the meetings that have been held are held on a saturday....a day which in my business can be one of the busiest which makes it extremely difficult for me to attend meetings.

I will of course try my very best to get the time off to attend the meeting on the 23rd. If i cant attend then it will be because i have to work. Which will always come before attending a meeting.

Hope this clears things up for you.

To Grant
re. not attending your events...
Thinktank 2007 - all away on holiday
24/25/26 May 2008 - robots in SE Asia
viewtopic.php?f=105&t=1427&start=255 (edit: page 19)
14/15 Mar 2009 - Newcastle - we live at the other end of the country (Sussex coast) and we were all unemployed at the time
12/13 Sept 2009 did not wish to enter PTDR therefore could not compete in tag team challenge
<a class=postlink-local href=http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/foru...5<br /> Please

just a reminder people were in 2010

Happy New Year :lol:

did u get my membership Karoline?

I was going to ask the same thing. I would like to renew my membership as well, and another up and coming FW roboteer would also like to sign up, but I'm not sure who to send the form or fee to. From what Andy Kane told me at Wigan its Karoline but due to these revelations I wish to confirm that.

PS:
With regards to all this new information: Fight Robots not humans!

Just a small prod Swanaldo! :wink:
There is, of course, no reason why members can't put there views on matters to be discussed via e-mail prior to, or even at, meetings.
For what it's worth I work weekends in the spring and summer, meetings are tricky for me too.
Mike.

Craig, not yet. BTW you have mail :kiss:

Snow has been very bad down here and post is seriously delayed but rest assured I will process any memberships sent to me as per usual until I can hand things over to Kane (or whoever succeeds me if sooner). Also membership forms can be completed and cards issued at events as per usual so you could wait for Barnsley, Whitwick or Nottingham and still beat the 31st March renewal deadline.

OK you say things to be brought out into th open. Be it on your head - I AM NO PUPPPET as you suggest . Profanity prevents me from saying what I think at this moment in time. Which leads me to say what I have already stated. Nothing you or anyoneelse says will change my mind. I have never lived on Tracey Island hence strings don't apply me If you have not worked this out I am sorry

Since this is now public I will have my say was going to wait until the meeting and until I had all the details.

At the time of the incident Jonno should have involved the police if he suspected a crime and not the FRA on such a scale. The FRA are do not have the ability to deal out justice in such a case. Yes we now have a code of conduct which Im sure will be looked at the meeting in 2 weeks.

Personally I respect and like all the people involved and I don't want to see another witch hunt carried out as has happened in the past. The FRA can act over permissions on this forum, but it is really up to the EO to say wether a person is welcome at their events. I think this should be resolved as quickly as possible, but without getting current feelings from the people involved I don't want to say if any punishments should be carried out.

Thanks mike for posting all the evidence, it feels great that I can actually talk about it freely for the first time since May !

Seeing as your posting all the facts€¦ You€™re missing something else.

3 phone calls to Jenny from myself, just after the incident, where I put her on the spot, asked her about the robot kit, and she reluctantly squirms and made up 3 different stories to try and explain why John Bell had the parts after she gave them to him.

Number 1 phone call. When asked why he had them?
She claimed after a long moment of silence €œJohn Bell has the robot parts to use as a template to make Debbie a robot.€
After which I Phoned John Bell, and he disagreed, and insisted she gave him the parts TO USE to make a robot.

Number 2 phone call.
She claimed that she doesn€™t know how they got to John Bell,€ there has been a big miscommunication €œ

Number 3 and current stance.
She doesn€™t know how John Bell got the parts, €œwhen she left the robot parts were on the table€, when asked, so are you saying John Bell or Debbie must have taken them, she replied €œyes they must€œ even though two other statements prove she€™s lying, and the parts never made it to the table ( also in the report ).


A point I need to make clear€¦.I didn€™t instigate the FRA investigation, they did that because even though Jenny had this ongoing, she then decided to stand for FRA president€¦. Good Idea don€™t you think ! ! Again it wasn€™t me who brought the FRA int this, Jenny did.
It was a personal thing between myself , jenny and Geoff, no one else.

I did my own investigation, made my own findings based on facts given by all parties, I admit it, at that point it didn€™t matter to me what the FRA found, I made my own mind up, even though Mike Ham Macy did find that she lied in her story, and clearly was the one who took the parts. ( is that not a guilty verdict? ) I had already banned them anyway.
The FRA investigation is a completely separate issue, as Kane clarifies in his email to Karoline.

You can all read in the emails, I gave her plenty of chance to simply own up, and we could deal with it, however she insisted on not doing so, so its gone this way. You will also read that it was quite amicable until Karoline got involved, and then it took a turn for the worst.

You will also read, that to date I have not actually banned Team Torque, only Geoff and Jenny have been asked not to come to RR events for the foreseeable future. I understand loyalties within a team so understand why we will probably never see the rest of the team, that€™s no problem for me in the current situation.

If anyone found that someone had helped themselves to your £250 tool kit, but then when questioned about it, changed the story and tried to cover it up, would you want to see them at events in the future like nothing has happened?? I wouldn€™t trust them again, and wouldn€™t want to be at an event with them.



Other points

If you would like to know how RR can host UK champs without Team Torque€¦ why not?

I have organised it for 2010 as once again the FRA hasn€™t done anything about it, Grant is right, I haven€™t been contacted by the FRA, I contacted Alan, to make sure he wasn€™t planning anything, ( which he wasn€™t ), so I organised it. 3 years ago the FRA was going to get trophies made, still waiting !!

Once again, I€™m driving things forward, So yes I will be hosting it without them, sorry if you don€™t like it that€™s the way it is.

Am I going against the FRA by excluding two members from my events, ( not a team ), in simple terms NO, its my choice, that€™s my right as they are my events and I make the rules.

Quote from Mike €œ the team has been exonerated by the FRA €œ where did that happen, I thought it was all about Jenny, not the whole team, although It appears that the other half of €œ Team Torque €œ have taken it upon themselves to act on and behalf of Jenny and Geoff, and are once again fighting their battles.

This was a private matter between Roaming Robots, Geoff and Jenny, It only became an FRA matter when Jenny decided to stand for president, I ask you, if you have the accusation of theft over your head, do you decide to run for president of an association?? I think not, that€™s when it turned all political and the FRA got involved because it reluctantly had to.

Even though they had no right to post the report, and even my private msn conversations, I€™m actually pleased that all the evidence has been posted so people can see the whole truth, and see that my head is held up high and my conscience is clear.

In simple terms it was a theft, . I made my mind up, and banned two members of a team, NOT THE WHOLE TEAM. They can attack the FRA as much as they like, it doesn€™t concern me, but I€™ve done nothing wrong.

What you hoped to achieve by launching a public attack, on both myself and the FRA I don€™t know, maybe you thought id realise that she didn€™t take the parts didn€™t try and get out of it, and just forget it ever happened, and take the nails out of the coffin€¦.. sorry but no, all you€™ve done is put a few more in!! Why would I want any of you around me and that€™s my freedom of choice.

There was going to be an FRA meeting on the 23rd, where it was going to be discussed, why not wait until then, instead of making yourselves look like this. Its just crazy talk !!


Oh yes Grant, yes there has been gaps since the rework of the arena, yes the FRA hasn€™t bothered about it, however I am already aware of them, Barnsley is a two day show to give us time ( we don€™t normally have ) at the event to sort them out. I€™m on it already without a safety officer on hand, although there has been some talk of someone putting themselves forward as a replacement.

I hope positive can come out of it, the FRA now can move on after the meeting on the 23rd, sort out and forget about the investigation, clear the deadwood, and actually move forward. Im looking forward to sitting down with Kane, Alan, and the others in Ireland on Wednesday, and seeing how we can sort things out for the best.

Enough said on the matter as far as I€™m concerned.!

Hi John, I certainly hope things move on.
Regarding the telephone calls between you and Jenny:
They and other items were not entered into my report because there was no way of me hearing them.
I don't doubt they took place and don't dispute the content.
I based my report on e-mails sent between those involved when it all started and
numerous e-mails and direct conversations between myself and those involved.
See you on the ferry, don't forget your seasick pills Alan, it's going to be rough!
Mike.
PS, can you bring my tripod with you? cheers.

Yeah i know mike, but if we are outing all the facts, we might aswell do it properly.

People can then make their own minds up, whcih they are doing.

See you on wednesday.

JOhn

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Originally Posted by anukhet

Safety issues - I merely co-ordinated the efforts of many people and we had others assisting us with far more knowledge and expertise than us as consultants. Are you questioning their competence too?

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To be honest, anyone who was involved in that grading obviously didnt have the knowledge and expertise required.
As a side note - when our arena was graded for the first time things were done properly and in depth. We were happy about any issues pointed out so that we could correct them (the floor structure was checked, the roof stucture was tested to guarentee it was strong enough, the floor was measured for its thickness, along with all the polycarbonate and kickplates). Its just as much for our own peice of mind so that our insurance is valid!
This matter was bought up at the FRA meeting after the first inspection (I bought it up, and everyone agreed the grading was incorrect). The outcome of that meeting ended with a promise that another grading would be done, and if the arena was incomplete, or didnt meet the standards then there would be no classification and not an FRA sanctioned event, with all details removed from the forum. Everyone knows the outcome of that, and issues I pointed out at the second arena grading were just ignored! I'm not going to go any further into this on the forum, as I believe the rest should be discussed in the next FRA meeting which I hope the EO's are allowed to attend?

Having read this and having short talks with EO's in that past its pretty simple

Geoff + Jenny took something that didnt belong to them without getting instruction or permission from the owner of said item. That is a pretty good definition of theft. I take around £2000 worth of robot related bits with me to events now. Id be seriously anoyed if some of it went walkies- I think Jonno is just looking out for his mates belongings at the end of the day (The other roboteers).

Jonno and robotslive are now working together in a very positive way- The FRA in my opinion are slowing them down by taking there sweet time over things. I dont blame Jonno for taking things into his own hands. Fair play.

Karoline and grants mention of technical checks- Im pretty strict as a tech checker. Ive been to events and failed a few robots.. then ive seen other signitures on there tech forms.. I dont agree with that. I was tech checking at Rebel robots when that happened.

Geoff did fail to check a robot with lipos at Rebel robots, i know that because it was my robot and having spoke to him at the last FRA meeting he had little or no understanding of li-po batteries. I dont hold anything against him for this, Not many people do know alot about them, but it would be a good idea if the FRA could give a little training to the tech checkers that dont know anything about them. But thats a different discussion.

No i dont want someone thats been involved in a theft as president.

Just like to correct something, the Rebel Robots Arena was inspected 3 times not twice, first time there was a miscommunication/misunderstanding as to what the insepction required, we part assembled the arena and had the rest of the parts avalible for inspection, this was not what was asked of me and therefore the arena was NOT graded on the first inspection
the second inspection took place in a warehouse we had hired especially for the inspection, Grant correctly states the arena was still being contructed when Geoff, Karoline and Steve arrived, we had stuggled with lack of power as the warehouse had no power when we arrived on the sat/sunday?? the day of the inspection and we couldnt get it fixed this is not an excuse, we continued to erect the arena after everyone else had left and were given a PROVISIONAL grading of 2, with Steve coming to see the finished arena later on to give us the oppertunity to complete the arena.

the third inspection Steve gave us a list of things we would need to do to get the Grade 2 we were hoping for and said at present it was good enough for a 2F therefore fit for purpose. This was the ONLY grading we received

Upon loading the lorry we had an incident where the wind caught 3 sheets of Polycarbonate for the roof as it was being lifted onto the truck and the forks caught the polycarb and broke almost totally in half the sheets for the left side of the arena roof, this caused a problem and we needed a solution there and then and we bought some 1/4inch plywood.

Once we arrived at the venue we struggled to get the arena up on time which caused the first show to be cancelled once the arena was up we found the arena roof was pushing out the walls which could of been a major problem but it was fixed while the rest of our crew duct taped the edges of the poly and strapped the roof inplace. This problem had not arisen at the 3rd inspection because the walls of the wharehouse were supporting the weight of the arena those who went will recall we were at the full width of the warehouse.

This was spoken about and logged in the event report which I understand has been lost since the event itself.

As i recall from the tech checks I shouted at Geoff for telling Dave Moulds he didnt need to tech check 360, I told him very loudly that every robot gets tech checked this was said infront of all of the people in the pits.

On EO communication I was NEVER contacted by the FRA to discuss any issues, I had to make contact with Andy Kane to get anything moving at all.

Im not going to be organising any more Events and the arena is is being resized to meet the next project which is a robot theatre, I wont be running any competitions and will NOT be bidding for any championships although I have stated an intention too, I wont be.