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Has anyone please got a vid of the final between Thor vs Iron Awe. It was the worst desision since robot wars began and yet no-one seems to have it on vid......someone must have it. Can you either e-mail it if you are too embarrassed to post it on here or just post it on here. Jason is very keen to see it as he cant remember the fight. Roboteers know what i mean when your in the zone you cant remember.
So PLEASE can someone either send it to me or post it.
Thanks
I think i may have the final, as i did record nearly all of brentwood :P
I'll take a looksie through my footage to see if i have...
Hi Shane,
I filmed that fight, I'll stick it on a disc and bring it to Reading.
Ian
PM sent mate....thanks :)
PM sent in reply
DVD format mate please :) and thanks again :)
It's on it's way, your now at the mercy of the Post Office.
many thanks mate :)
Thanks for the dvd mate. Lovin the cover. Drinks on me next time we meet out.
Now as for the fight. I dont really know why i am going on about this. I still feel like we were robbed of a trophy and the first real big event we have won. I am not asking for the trophy to be handed over to us or anything but i feel that even if some recognise Thor as the winner it will mean a lot to us. I will be posting the vid soon and you can make your own mind up who the real victor is. Please dont assume have got it in for team Iron Awe cos i havent. They are a great team with a great robot. But to be awarded the event cos iron awe flipped out of the pit is still beyond me. Not bitter or owt :) just want the moral victory.
Vid will follow shortly
Okay, now that's just utter bull. Self-righting from the pit was never allowed in the first place. That's a solid fact right there, and a solid loss for Iron Awe.
Seriously, I really like Iron Awe but they did not deserve that win.
errrm
at a risk of getting shot....
Ive been a judge, and know how hard it is to make a quick decision... and to me i DONT think it is so clear cut !!!
Ok so iron awe went in the pit, but after 10 seconds he's out again, and it was entertaining to see him get out... throughout the fight he was flipping robots well into the air.. and thor did struggle to selfright after a flip by iron awe... and its axe was pretty lame by the end.
ok so iron awe lost drive to one side, but he was still mobile, .
But then thor did immobilize the other robots.
I will watch it agian tomorrow, and score it.
But on my first 2 views,, can see that thor probably should have won on points, but can see how iron awe could get it.
Certainly looks different than when i saw it live... then... i thought thor was defo badly robbed.
John
I seem to recall the previous discussions on rules going that you get ten seconds to get out of the pit, and you can hear the comentary with Angela saying 'how long were they in there for?' so fine I have no problems with that part.
Thor was agressive and in general desrved the win, but when you park your robot up at the side with ten seconds to go and don't engage for however long you get exposed to these type of decisions.
I said to Swanny at the time that I didn't see what else you have to do (disable two robots and partially disable the other) but watching the video I suppose what you have to do is engage. If you watch Iron Awe at the end they make a point of saying 'HEY WE'RE STILL IN THIS!!' by flipping Mega Mouse. Thor is parked up at the side ten seconds early. (Did they actually refuse to fight or stop trying?)
Not saying it should be that way, but that's what I think cost Thor the fight. Thor did enough and then lost on a silly tactical mistake.
Mind you there were a few dodgy decisions in that event. Not sure how the judges could spend five minutes deciding whether HYDRA won when everyone else was in the pit??
Andy
correct me if i am wrong mr John but in a comp fight if you are pitted you are out. Thats the norm is it not. and we were still from 7 seconds thinking we had won.....
Thor immobalised maelstrom
Thor Immobalised Mega Mouse
Iron awe flipped a total of 7 times...no matter how good it looked
Thor got a total of 23 hits
Iron Awe flipped Thor 3 times
Thor hit ironawe 5 times
Iron Awe was PITTED
Iron Awe lost drive toward the end another reason we backed of with 7 and i say 7 seconds to go
Simple desision to me as a judge.....and 1 of them was DRUNK
yes mr shane i will correct you. If you are in the pit you have 10 seconds to get out of it . Been the rules for years.
As i said before yes i think thor should have won but i don't think its as clear cut.
As a judge it happens very quick and i don't think in that fight thor was as aggressive as it could have been. You've been able to watch it a few times. A judge doesn't.
Will look at the youtube thingy when I get back home, can't view youtube at work.
At one of the roaming robots events I was at (think it was Newark), at the end of a big fight the judges asked the drivers the show them the weapons were still working and the robot could effectively navigate across the Arena. If you could not do this, that would be counted as a big negative.
So, let's say both Thor and Iron-Awe scored the same amount of points during the fight, at the end Iron-Awe was disabled. It could not engage in effective combat.
Hmm, debatable. I'm sure it's been in RR's rules for a while that you have ten seconds to get out the pit; Robo Challenge competitions give you 30 seconds to get out (only usually beneficial to flippers albeit). I don't think it's ever been a concrete rule that if you go in the pit you're immediately out. It's not an FRA rule so it comes down to event organiser discretion and, as Jonno has said, it's been in RR event rules for ages now. It did seem to be the case in Robot Wars that once you were in the pit you were out, but that pit was so deep and large that it would be very difficult for anyone to escape that.Quote:
Self-righting from the pit was never allowed in the first place.
The pit is an arena hazard in the same way as the floor flipper is. You don't get declared immobilised by being flipped (unless it break's your robot) so you perhaps shouldn't be immediately declared immobilised if you go down the pit. Teams should have a chance to be allowed to get back out, but within the set time limit.
To the battle in hand, and in my opinion, the win should have gone to Thor. Iron-Awe did manage to escape the pit - I made it to be in roughly 9 seconds, but couldn't see fully - but Thor immobilised both Maelstrom and Mega Mouse and by the end of the fight, Thor was fully mobile albeit with reduced weapon power but Iron-Awe appears to have lost drive on one side. To me, that should count as substantial damage as they cannot successfully manoeuvre their robot in for an attack. So Thor for the win for me.
BUT, I do know judges have to make quick decisions and that in any sport, judges' decisions can cause controversy and can occasionally be unjust or incorrect (look at the Liverpool match at the weekend where a goal was allowed after being deflected in off a beach ball!) so I'm disagreeing with the judges' decision but not going to slate them for it.
And as much fun as we have with the social aspect of events, perhaps the people who are sitting as judges should be limiting their alcohol intake?
well the robot rumble judges have always been a bit contriversial. However they have now been told that their services are now no longer required. So 2010 we dont have the same issues.
I've just watched the fight again. .sorry iron awe deserves the win by miles . They flipped every robot a million times. Thor's hammer couldn't crack an egg. They are the reining champ's and they have yellow paint. You know robots with yellow or green get lots of pointss
Ok........ jason and I have watched the vid for the 50th time......we have timed how long ironawe was in the pit....assuming the crowd cheered because it flipped out....i see no other reason for the crowd chearing...... it was in the pit for near on 12 seconds.....case rested. Book closed.....Closet open....Cars ready.....End of....Done....finito......
We are happy about the fact we won with no doubt. Discuss all you like now his so called 10 seconds was infact 12. There is a clock on the youtube vid....we won YAY.
Robots with yellow on them are just lucky and the teams must ass kiss the judges before hand. Ripper.....PAH....Iron Awe.....PAH.
TEAMBUD RULES
wheres this video, i wana see what all this talk is about
anyone have a link?
thanks
As a conselation trophy I might just bring alongs SMIDSY's shattered wheel hub to the next event for you Swanny! Have to say I was shocked when I took it apart to find out what the rattle was. Have a look here www.teamhydra.co.ukQuote:
Originally Posted by roamingrobots
Andy
It was indeed longer than 11 seconds, close to 12. It felt shorter though, so I can see that if you are a judge at the time you might think it was under 10 seconds.
Here we are Calum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a813ojc-qA
Personally I think it could have gone either way as far as a judge's decision goes... not sure about the pit matter.
Thor has to take it on damage for battering Mega Mouse, Maelstrom and damaging Iron Awe.
However I feel the other 3 categories go to Iron Awe, even if it is close. It was more impressive at the beginning of the match, and Thor failed to capitalise at the end.
Of course though damage IS the biggest factor... I wouldn't like to call it :)
And that's why I'm not a judge :P
I said at the time to John Bell & John Reid that this would be contraversial before the decision was even made to give the fight to Iron Awe.
Knowing how this particular judge scores goes a long way into why the decision went against you. IMHO when IA was part immobilised you did not take full advantage of that situation and PROVE that you could do anything you liked with them. I'm not talking about flipping them OOTA or creaming them against the side wall but just showing the judges that (1) You were in full control of your own robot and (2) you were in full control of the other one too :wink: As it happened you just sat there and waited for time to run out.
That particular judge rates style and agression very highly - at the moment IA became part-immobilised it was ahead on points by my reckoning, it COULDN'T do anything after that but you WOULDN'T do anything - that's why I think the decision went the other way.
Hi karoline
the judge did indeed award the fight to Iron Awe. Shocked as i was because we thought we had the fight in the bag which is why we backed off toward the end....Still i said to the judge.....Why did you award the fight to Iron Awe....his reply was and i quote his words.... because i liked the way he got out of the pit how can you not award a win for that.
That to me is not judging the fight at all. There was 3 judges.....! awarded the fight to Thor....1 was actually drunk and the other ...... well we could have smashed all the robots and killed MD and still drove agressive toward the end and Sucked his lolly pop he would still have awarded the fight to Iron Awe because he liked it getting out of the pit.
Which makes your above statment flawed.
LOL
another camera angle !!
http://www.youtube.com/user/roamingrobots
JOhn
www.roamingrobots.co.uk
Well from that angle i count almost 12 seconds. Thats nearly 2 more seconds than your so called pooey pit rule.
It doesnt matter what angle you look at it Thor won.
Thor is the true champion of Robot Rumble 2009.
Case closed and put on top of the wardrobe to gather dust.
Flawed? No!
I did say IMHO - what the judge had to say for themself is another matter :)
Well I've had a look at that fight for myself, and I would personally call that a win for Thor, simply due to legal immobilisation. If the fight had missed out the pit issue completely, I would still give Thor the win, HOWEVER there is barely a point between them, considering all other factors of Style, Control, Damage and Aggression. The judges desicion should have encompased all main points in the fight, and in my mind immobilising 2 robots counts considerable.
Also, regardless of if the axe couldn't crack an egg it is still an agressive action.
Just my 2 cents.
Just a thought with the pit rule, does it vary between each EO ? I've seen The Saint crawl out of the pit after 10 seconds and carry on to win, but I think that was an RL event. Just curious.
The FRA at the last meeting discussed judging rules, and i think that they were going to be providing a set.... hopefully they will get them done before Wigan, and then we can all follow them, and we will get some consistency in the judging at all events !!
John
www.roamingrobots.co.uk
There needs to be a basic rule set really. It would be exremely difficult to judge a 4 way mellee and get it right. For competition fights that is. white board is what it is and its fun.
Lets say...Iron Awe vs Envy.....now i flip iron awe 4 times and he flips me 4 times and we are just as agressive as each other along with style. would the win go to ironawe because or their awsome weapon which is more spectacular?
Another..... Thor vs ripper......ripper flips thor 6 times and thor gets 6 hits on ripper. again much the same on aggression and stlye. who wins that one.
its a big can of worms the judging lark.
firstly, well done swanny, this is a very relevent issue, iv seen some shocking desicions in my time. and also the pit issue needs to be resolved,i have seen many a case where a robot gets out of the pit after 10 seconds, mainly the saint, but then again it gets the crowd going, i heard some kids at reading the other day saying wow mummy did you see the one that got out of the pit, it was amazing! which can only be a good thing, however although its good to get the fans pumped up and screaming, this is also a compitition, and there needs to be a set of rules that stop the clear winner losing on a silly mistake....and no im not saying that if some of the more awsome robots like ia5, envy, thor or thz accidently drive into the pit after dominating the fight that they should still be allowed the win, the other robot won fair and square, no im saying that, there needs to be a good judging system, the judges a: must be sober :P b: know the rules, so they know how long a robot must be.....to be imobilised and c: have a good judging system, they should be able to look back at the fight and add up all the different factors for each robot and make calculated desicion based on the data given to them, they should also give the win to the person/robot that deserved it, not because its driven/made by their friend, or give it too sombody just because they happen to have the big killy thingy, and, with all due respect too the audiance, if they have to vote for the outcome of a match, they may be more inclined to vote for the one with the super cool LEDS, or the pink fur, or the glitter balls. the deciion should be made by sombody who knows what they are doing.
there also needs to be a firm pit rule, if sombody is in the pit for 10 sec, thats it they are out, i also think that all the evets hould have the same pit rule to avoid confusion, but if sombpdy can gt out bfor 10 seconds is up happy dayz! the fight goes on , if they get out after 10 seconds, they are imobile, its like being counted out by the ref and THEN moving away.
as for the fight, it was 11 seconds iron awe was in the pit by my count, so it was easy for there to be a mistake on that part of the fight on the judges part, it was very close for the rest of the battle, but i think iron awe just edged it, even if they did lose one side thor did not capitalise on it they just sat there, while at least iron awe moved, they also got some good flips in on thor, and nocked out the other robots, but credit is due to shane for a great fight, and tbh i think it wqas the right thing to do puttin this up, it was a extremly contreversial decision and my opiinion is well...just that my opinion :)
jack
I have seen many a case where a robot gets out of the pit after 10 seconds, mainly the saint, but then again it gets the crowd going, I heard some kids at reading the other day saying wow mummy did you see the one that got out of the pit, it was amazing! which can only be a good thing. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :proud: I got flipped out 2 seconds before the end of the fight so I still lost :uhoh: :uhoh: Perhaps the person with the mike could get the audience to count the 10 seconds, then everyone will know. Or the arena marshal :D
Being in the pit is like being immobilised; when you can get out within 30 seconds you can continu the fight. I think that's in the rules already? It is in the Dutch version.
I think that judges decisions will always be to some degree contravertial because it's an opinion. If you try and fix a rigid set of rules then the wrong robot will win in quite a lot of cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by swanaldo
Take for example Hydra vs Thor at Portsmouth. Thor dominated the fight really but Hydra got a lot more hits in with the axe. So if the rules say one axe hit, means on point Hydra would have won and it would have been the wrong decision.
Another example Hydra vs Envy at Portsmouth. Hydra and Envy to be honest performed well in the fight so it was really a close call. Envy was very agressive but Hydra broke down and escaped an awful lot of attacks. So in the new rules, how many attacks trying to do the same thing would you have to make before you start to lose points? Or how do you score good defensive driving? I would have been happy with that decision either way.
At the end of the day I would hate that the judging came down to a prescriptive set of rules without allowing judges to use judgement and decide on the 'feel' of the fight.
If you don't want to be on the bum end of a bad decision then knock the other robot out!
But more seriously, surely the solution is that you use respected judgess.
Andy
i agree with you andy. A judge is just that. . . A judge. He or she makes a judgement on what happens in the fight while you can have guidelines each will score things in different ways.
One way of knowing you've won is to knock your opponent out. the robot that is.
Bringing it up 6 months later just shows your a thor looser ha ha. Clives words. :-)
Jonno never mind knocking the oponent out i will drive over there and knock you out you big girls blowse smelly pants.
As for the judge...respect...and all that nonsey girly talk.... if the judge dont get it right next time THors hammer will go somewhere and they will be turned into a human lollypop.
I tells ya
Jeeeees :angry:
8)
And you can shut up too Trevor.
and anyone else who decides to be a big hunky hero and tells me to stop being childish and spamming the forum.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm its been a while since i did that actually.