Dump valve access

We are currently rebuilding aftershock for the championships and have changed the location of the dump valve.

We would like to know whether having the access for the dump valve on the bottom of aftershock would be acceptable and pass the tech check.

To vent at the end of the fight the flipper would be locked with the pin and the robot turned over to vent the system

Would this be allowed??

Thanks

Will

This would not be allowed Will. Too many risks involved.

i have seen some robots that have this and even turn the co2 on with the robot turned over

Thanks Kane, I thought so but I wanted to make sure.

If you refer to us, our dump is next to the link on top. The bottle opens from the bottom but that is not any safer or unsafer than with the robot on its wheels. I actually prefer to gas up that way so the robot cant drive off and the flipper points away from me.

After a fight, assuming you need to dump co2 (we are usually empty anyway) and the robot is upside down you would need to turn it over then also, so I dont see how one is safer than the other.

i personaly think the above is correct and best as long as its safe. in a feather any ways but not in a heavy (beast can vent at the back when on wheels and upside down) which is normaly the case now days
so Will i would like to say if its like Leos and Beauty i would say its ok but as long as it can be demo ed safely

i think Cutlet was the 1st like that

personaly as a tech checker i dont like it. Its like putting your link in the bottom aswell. At an event today i saw a heavyweight being lifted on its side to turn the gas on then droped down again.. personaly i think the link, dump valve and gas on/off valve and any other safety devices should all be under one panel accessable from the top of the machine, away from any weapons. If possible.

its no big deal to get acces to the bottle in the Hannibalitos. But Im not the one whos going to put my hand 8cm deep in a robot when free and unrestricted acces in available from below.

And if were talking heavies, its not that easy to lift it, turn open the bottlevalve and put it down in a safe fashion.

And, more rules, more regulations, more laws please do.... Especialy concerning the already overregulated pneumatics section.

The featherweights are far more easily and safely to manipulate than the heavyweights, hence more leeway is possible there. Besides, the rules do not say where the access to the bottle should be.
As a tech checker myself I would prefer to see all safety features neatly stacked together for the arena marshall to handle after the fights, but as long as everything is clearly indicated, as per the rules, I do not see the problem. Unless the marshall has to go to ridiculous lengths in order to access them.
The rules state that the removable link has to be accessible outside the reach of the weapon, but they actually do not mention the same for the dump valve. They only say that the DV should be accessible from outside the robot. Yet, commmon sense dictates that it should be positioned outside of your weapons reach.:proud:

For the record, The hannibalitos get gassed up on their sides, not their back. So the wheels and the flipper do not touch the groud and the flipper points away from the person gassing up. I dont see how gassing up with the robot on its wheels on the floor with your hands next to the flipper is any safer.

(Message edited by leo-rcc on May 12, 2008)

All of Devastators valves and power switches were located under the robot. When it went to RoboGames last year both the American and British safety guys complained that it wasnt allowed. The argument was what happens if the weapon fires while you have it lifted up, my brothers reply was pee myself. The flipper has fired while he was powering it up during testing and he had his head under the robot. After that experiance we both deemed that it was actually the safest place to be when it happened because if he was powering it up from the other side he would have been hit by the flipper arm, instead the only way he knew it happened was the bang and the recoil of the arms bungee which he said was surprisingly light.
Powering up Devastator at RoboGames after winning the argument can be seen here. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ctibrwicijEhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ctibrwicijE

Of corse it all depends on the robot. No way Id turn Avenger on from the underside.

(Message edited by kkeerroo on May 13, 2008)

Thanks everyone,

We are going to run it with the dump access on the bottom for now but to make sure that it cant fire when is is being turned over we will make sure that the locking bar is in place.

Will

Just 1 point i would like to bring up is

I would like to see all gas bottles with screw top v/v`s
this is because if the weapon does fire it should just fill the ram slowly and thats safe, you then turn gas off and dump then run with no flipper as i have done

You have to know i got kicked out of seris 6 because of that!!

john it doesnt matter, ive always used the squeezey type handles, the way i did it on turbulence mk1 was WAY safer then any other machine ive seen.

big bolt type thing on the outside of the robot with a thread through the armour, and a dial on the outside- as the bolt with the dial on gets screwed in it pushes the handle of the bottle closed.. way safer then having to put your hand inside the machine to turn the bottle on

I still think using a tool to turn the gas on was the safest method which unfortunatly got ruled out- didnt need to be as close to the machine or even have ur hand inside. I wish it was legalised with the rule you must use a 13mm socket or somthing so the marshal has the same tool for all the bots or somthing similar- it got ruled out cos the marshalls were anoyed with everyone having different tools.

Having seen turbulence mk1 miss fire when i gased it up with the dial- yes it shook me up, but no it didnt hurt me.. if there was an access pannel to put my hand in and it miss fired. im sure it would of broken my wrist.

Dave, I have to agree, the tool method of isolating the gas was a safer method in M2 but was removed as requested by event organisers. I am in the process of moving the gas bottle in M2XT and will re-introduce the tool method for me but still allow the option for those marshalls who want to put their hands inside to turn off the bottle. I cant remebed what size nut I put on the regulator but it was probably a M10 so a 17mm socket on a Tee bar should do the job nicely. Standardising on a size would be the way to go if the powers that be would consider the option.

Paul ill put it across to the powers at the next meeting i attend. Or atleast try persuade the other marshalls at the events to use one tool. I myself am a marshall for robotslive! and i dont see a problem, If everyone standardised to an access pannel or an M10 nut thats reachable within.. say 100mm of the bodywork then the marshall could have.. as you suggest a 17mm T-bar 200mm long. i dont think thats un reasonable.

And from a roboteers point of view.. i dont like having a big opening or a hinged flap on my machine.. its just a pointless weakness to the machine.

Pete lale? Alan young? Any other marshalls opinions?

Gentlemen,
The build rules are clear.. without the use of tools
That said, if it can be agreed that one standard tool be used then I dont see a problem (subject to a properly discussed and voted on change to the build rules)
Although if the valve is only accessable with a tool via a hole in the bodywork, how do we get round the potential problem of bodywork damage preventing access to the valve?
However, Im not at all happy with this business of having to turn over or tip a machine on its side to access the valve. Rembember we recently mandated a second removable link on some machines precicely for that reason.
I would be very dubious about passing any pneumatic machine at tech check that required to be turned over to access the valve. In fact, I would more than likely fail it!

Yes guys, more rules will further the creativity involved building robots. Especialy the rule neglected pneumatics are really in need.

I just would think that if a tool is needed to open/close the bottle/dump valve everybody uses the same tool. But dont restict the people to that. Acces hatches or just open holes in the armor do the trick as wel. Those served us for years and baring some stupidities without any serious effect it has proven rather save.

Just make sure the techcheckers and the arena marshal agree on the safety aspect of a bottle/dump valve setup. Thats enough if you ask me.
Of course, sooner or later somebody can turn up with an inherently unsafe setup, and then its to the techcheckers to advise the event organisers that the machine cant compete with that setup.

But dont forget, the machines, even the ants, are build to destroy armored metal machines. Those tools of destruction we create arent cuddly teddybears or RC controled foamcovered bumpercars.

Geoff, if the pannel should become so mashed up that the bottle carnt be shut off then all the gas can still be dumped out of the system via the dumpvalve. Which i have to agree with you, i dont like them being under the machine either as i said earlyer.

People argue about the position of the dump valve during arming up.. i dont care about that.. i close my dump valve when im waiting to be told to arm up, so i dont forget when im in a rush..its not a big safety danger.. Its diss-arming that worrys me.. id hate to go upto a heavyweight thats got gas in it, lift it onto its side then dump it. Id rather flick the valve and stand back while it vents. If we allow feathers to do somthing- its only fair that heavyweights can abide by the same rules.. in my opinion niether weight class should have the dump valves on the bottom of the machine.

Why is it so hard to have a pipe going to the valve accessable from the top of the machine?

I totally agree on standardising a tool ... I really dislike disarming my pneumatic bots by accessing the inside with my hand....my current feather somersaults if it fires and the heavy nearly turns itself over....not nice if your arm is inside the bot.

The dumpvalve, no problem with a bit of creativity.

But the placement of a CO2 bottle in a feather is more of a problem. Shape and function dictate the location of that bottle and valve.

@ Mario i wasnt suggesting everyone changes to the tool option, just those who would rather not stick there hands in the machine to turn it on/off. By all means keep your hatch, Id personaly rather use a tool though.

The Gas on/off valves on the hannibalitos are on the bottles directly in front of you when you put them on their sides (which i fully intend to keep on doing no matter what anyone tells me) not obscured by anything so you can gas up without your hand in the robot. No hatch, no cover, just a hole or nothing at all.

Id rather have the arena marhall dumps everything with the bottle open so there is no gas left to fire than have him close the bottle first and then dump but thats just me.

If you cant turn one of the hannibalitos over to reach the dump valve from the hatch you could do it from the bottom I suppose but that would require you to put your hand all the way down, and then opening the screw. The link could be done the same way. But I would rather just flip the thing over, its only 12 to 13.6 kg.

With the heavies I agree there is a case to be made for a tool. If people feel its safer for them to do it with a tool (I know Team Compactory uses a tool for their heavyweight Hard whenever they are allowed to) by all means use a tool. But then please make it a standard tool so the arena marshalls dont get 15 different tools for 15 different robots and there is always 1 said tool handy near the arena.

Regarding dump and links: I am not happy with the link in Obsidian for instance so I am going to fit a second one for the bottom. I dont know how yet but it will be there. I think the dump could be done the same way. All it takes is a little creativity and common sense to see what works and what not.

Will, with regards to your feather, id rather have it so you could dump the gas without the locking pin because that is an extra step an arena marshall has to do and specially with feathers they already have huge numbers to deactivate after each fight. The simpeler it is to disarm the better it is for everyone involved.

Id rather have the arena marhall dumps everything with the bottle open so there is no gas left to fire than have him close the bottle first and then dump but thats just me

Me too, but i think the idea was to conserve gas at events, but pretty much everyone dumps it all when they re-fill anyhow to chill the bottles..

apart from that.. you basically agree with the standardised tool rule set for heavyweights? I would be happy to run with a 17mm socket or T-bar as paul suggested.

Geoff- your the man that would go about setting this rule in stone. How do we go about doing that? I understand it will probably need bringing up at the next FRA meeting.. then what?

Dave, I hope that there will be a meeting in June. (either the 7th or the 21st)
Im more than happy to put it on the agenda, to save you having to write a proposal can you attend and explain this to the commitee and hopefully we can agree a form of words that covers it.
There would then be a vote, and if passed would come into effect after 90 days (as per the constitution)

Yep, Cheers Geoff, Ill try my best to be there.

I only beleive tools were not used to dis-arm robots due to the fact that roboteers used to disarm their bots and if a tool is needed and the roboteers is not about due to whatever reason? (faints due to winning) and the robot is out of control and someone needs to disarm it and a tool is needed, then there are problems.

But if a standardised tool is set, then any arena marshal can have the tool and be fine.

I never went to major pneumatics (even though i wanted to) due to the fact of robots jumping sometimes when being armed or disarmed. I cring when some people arm/disarm the high powered pneumatic robots, and i LOVED the way Ewe 2 and M2 used to be armed/disarmed.

So good luck for the rule change guys - would make me more calm when watching you guys arm and disarm those pneuamtic beasts!!

Mr Stu

Just one thought Dave, are you proposing that this standard tool could be used to open / close the dump valve, the bottle or both?

Thanks for the support there stu-

Geoff- Just the bottle. I dont find the dump valve as much as a threat- as (with alot of bots) the dump valve is near the link anyhow- and its only a quick thing to dissarm (lift a small arm) as is pulling the link..a quick thing to do..

Its the amount of time you put urself at risk when opening and closing a bottle that worries me.

(Message edited by mr_turbulence on May 15, 2008)

Thanks Dave, thats what I thought, but just wanted to be sure.
Do you think there is a need for some wording on the location of said dump valve? I.E. safely accessable / next to link?

Personaly i always try and get all the shutdown and lock off devices in one area of the machine under one hatch..on the top side of the robot.. i just think thats common sense.. But not everyone shares my opinion.

I still stand by my comment of the dump valve should be located on the top side of the robot. maybe not so important for featherweights but id have to say all lock off devices NEED to be accessable from the top of the machine or BOTH with heavyweights.

Lifting up a heavyweight like kronic for example to dump the gas and pull the link would in my opinion be stupid. Im sure you agree.

..btw kronic is perfectly safe.. just using that as an example due to how scarey the things weapon is.

Standard tool For Turning ON / OFF Gas
I Have No problems with this as long as everyone uses the same ie 10mm nut / 17mm socket .... NOT A 5/8 WHICH IS THE SAME ......

I GET A Lot at work VERY ANOYING Especially when on a torque wrench that slips :):P

pete whats mm ;)
5/8 or English is best

no..... you shouldnt be using tools to turn on or off your gas !!!

Well off should be done without, but why wouldnt you use a tool if it is safer to gas up?

I agree that if it is safer to use a tool then thats ok, but it shouldnt be compulsary. But I think that its should at least be a recommendation that pneumatic weapons should have a external LED to show when the weapon is active. Many teams already do, Big Nipper is the first that springs to mind. This would eliminate some of the doubt when turning on the gas as you could see if the weapon is going to fire. We have done it before with Turb just not noticing the Tx is in the fired position. I have already discussed this with Geoff, will send an email to the FRA for discussion at the next meeting.

The rules already recommend a kill switch.
The kill switch should cause the robot to failsafe.
The rules recommend an LED to indicate a failsafe state.
Does this not satisfy that requirement.

just not noticing the Tx is in the fired position
On the TX add ..if necessary.. a spring loaded switch to operate the weapon channel or there is the option of using the left hand stick - centre OFF - thus ensuring ...as far as possible...that the weapon will not receive the order to fire.

(Message edited by woody on May 19, 2008)

jonno- why?

Woody, this is true, but Ive got used to the toggle switch now.

Kane, not following you, the LED on Turb is only on when the fire burkerts are fired, so when arming up if this light is on then the flipper will fire when the gas is turned on. It has nothing to do with a kill switch.