Stabbing split mechanism.

Im not seriously mechanically minded, but I was wondering if any of you roboteers think something like this would work.

Basically, its two very sharp and strong blades one under the other. Angled to a point so they can be stabbed in, and then the mechanism comes forwards and splits, tearing the metal open. Kind of a reverse crusher. Its a real can-opener.

(I had a pic, but I think you get what I mean now)

So, is this viable or been done before? If it was gonna have any real effectiveness, I guess itd have to be hydraulic. That probably means youd have to have some kind of arms on the side to grab the opponent while the blades push in.

I have no experience with hydraulics so I cant help you on that side but from my experience of current armour technology, it wouldnt work. The majority of bots are armoured in hardox, titanium or layers and layers of various plastics etc. Trying to pierce through is exceptionally tough.

You are also relying on a number of events to take place for the weapon to work. This rarely happens in the arena.

Look at the series 1 and 2 machines that had bits that drew opponents in and then did various things to them. They never worked as the most effective weapons are the ones that rely on a single action. flip, smack, crush etc.

I think what that means is that youve got to work absolute overtime to create something that is unusual AND effective. It is best to go with a simple design thats true though.

I know pneumatic spikes dont generate the force needed to get through todays armour, but as long as you can hold them in place with something and youre exercising Razer-equivalent hydraulic power into a weapon tough enough to take the pressure, surely you can get through. Hydraulic power is virtually unstoppable, right?

Hydraulics is definatly not unstopable. Just like pneumatics the larger the cilinder, the more force, but also the more weight. The only main difference is the working pressure and the fact you dont vent the material you use to move the piston. You can have a 8 tonne hydraulic crusher, or a 8 tonne pneumatic crusher, both will be just as effective. All in all, there both 8 tonnes.

Just a Razer/Tiberius kind of hydraulic piercing arm takes a lot of weight.
Tiberius IV has the mayor advantage of being 4 years younger than the latest Razer incarnation.

Now, the idea on its own is not bad. Hydraulic spreaders do excist. But with 10kg for the spreader alone, and the rest of the weapon, capable of piercing the opponents armor- take 3.2mm Hardox as common- you will have to get some weight from drive, armor or weaponspeed.

Razer was an unbeatable one of a kind,in its prime (series 5 and 6) it was only beaten by a defensive weapon the acw.I doubt there will ever be another robot with that kind of design again-it crushed robots at 9 tonnes on its own chassis.

Well of course it wasnt unbeatable even at its best, but it was very difficult to beat. Although the weapon was very effective the real problem for most opponants was that it was nearly impossible to get under it at the front, and due to the excellent driving the front was all most other robots ever saw. Tiberius actually has a more powerful weapon and is certainly much better armoured.
A bit like the heavyweight boxer Mike Tyson in an odd sort of way. At his peak everyone was talking about how hard he hit- and he did hit hard- but the reason a lot of the other big guys couldnt cope with him was his defensive movement and speed...
The ACW was quite neat. Razers design made it very effective against most normal robots, but Tornado put the boot on the other foot by working out how to negate Razers advantage. Crushers like Razer are fairly straightforward to design a defense for, but unless you can swap out your ACW for a more conventional configuration your robot is useless against most non-crushers.

unfortunately after a few years of watching robot wars it was the incident with the interchangeable weaponary that tornado used that ruined it for me. even if it was in the rules.

I had this Hydraulic tearer idea for a vapour-bot I designed, and I also came to the same conclusion that the force needed to peice modern day armour is greater than even the best rammers can produce.

Also, as a Razer fan, I didnt like the ACW, but it was still a good idea, if, in my opinion, a bit of a cheap tactic.

I must say I was and remain suprised by the upset the ACW caused with some people. If its in the rules, thats the end of it Idve thought. As I said, Razers design exploits vulnerabilities in the design of most fighting robots. Tornado just did the same thing to them. Theres little point trying to beat something like Razer by using tactics or weapons that are likely to fail. Apart from the obvious issue of getting a bunch of holes in your robot, theres also the way that crushers can smother opponants and control the fight. Unless that can be dealt with you are likely to lose...

You should see all the people on Youtube calling Tornado a cheat and stuff. One fairly moronic guy even suggested that Tornados cheating was what caused RW to be axed.

I really dont understand it.

(Message edited by Almost_there on September 27, 2007)

not a fan of razer, TX-108 had the same hydraulic set up in series 6 as Razer and we only got 4 tonnes, funny that razer didnt enter series 7 when they made us prove the pressure we were running at,

to the original question i dont think itll work, i can assure u that ud never punch through 20mm hardox

oh and Daniel, look for a robot called Pinser 14 tonnes of crush made razer look like a pansy

could someone post a video link to this ACW fight, please?

havent seen it before

alex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZeSlQNPYxghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZeSlQNPYxg

Come on Craig, the 9 tonnes quoted for Razer is just a roughly calculated figure from some arbritrary pressure and the size of the ram. Its probably not even remotely accurate. You dont think they actually measured it do you?

I think it is a bit much implying that roboteers were cheating based on such shaky evidence.

The main factors that limit the force you can deliver with a hydraulic crusher are the power of the motor, the gearing and the strength of the mechanism.

Razer did an excellent job of building a powerful crusher at the time. Obviously, more powerful machines have been built since then.

I think its time to move on...

John

I agree John.

I dont think the ACW was cheating which is what some people say......it was perfectly in the rules.

It was a good idea,but i saw it as more as a defensive weapon than an attacking one.

I belive team tornado built an anti spinner weapon and an anti axe weapon also.But what ive heard of the AAW it was just a steel frame suspended on kart tyres.

I think THZ would of had it!:)

Does anyone know the details of the ASW?

Any pics of pinser Craig?

Thanks.

Dan.

pinser was in this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq0lxKaSxH0http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq0lxKaSxH0

For the record, Razer uses a 4 inch diameter ram. So, at the old 3000 psi limit, that would be capable of producing over 17 tonnes.

So, if they had ever run it at close to the pressure limit, the mild steel arm would probably have failed.

I never knew that. Thanks for that John :). Any idea what pressure they did run at ?

I believe they had about 9 tons in the ram and 3 at the tip of the arm. James C is the best person to correct me if im wrong.

If the Razer ram is 4 bore, and the max pressure used 120 bar, they had aboutish 9 tons.

But, if my memory from 2000 doesnt fail me, the Razer ram is only 3 bore. And that computes to 3000 psi for 9 tons of force.

Razer ran a Radial piston pump rated at 10,000psi powered by a 6v motorbike starter motor ran at 12v, so i agree it was a powerfull motor, Razer never revealed its gearing ratio which always lead to some sceptisum as to the psi they were producing, when i personally asked Vinny at an event (i think it was Debenham 03) i asked what pressure it ran at he smiled and said 3000 of course, when i asked again he said might be over but they dont check do they

thus leading to my conclusion of them running a higher pressure, i stand by my beleif that they over ran there psi i dont think they ran 10,000psi but i do think they ran higher than 3000

No i have no evidence other than my convo with vinny which is speculative at best but the fact they didnt enter when they intorduced the pressure test and the fact they never told anyone there gear ratio
No its not hard eveidence but i stand by my comment

I think people forget jus how long ive been building robots, no ive not been the TV roboteer of Behemoth or Killerhurtz (if u think back John we met at series 2 filming) Im not some crack pot disgruntled fan im a decade roboteer, i know robots ive spent the best part of my life playing with these machines and being around them ive fought all of the robot wars champions with my previous and current robots so when im told a robot might be bending the rules i beleive them, i remember Adam clark telling me he had a switch to jump from 24-48v (may of been 12v-24v which is more likely) on corpral punishment that mentorn and the crew didnt know about. It was common practice when razer first was built so yes i do still beleive it

Part of the game back then was flouting the rules... Certain robots weighed in at 80kgs without armour, batteries, gas, etc.

I do know that Razer had a nasty bite, but the limiting point was the arm which would bend frequently. They had the producers on their side which made them untouchable anyway.}

Getting back to the original question for a moment I believe with the new armour Hardox at 4mm plus, not many weapons even hydraulic will ever get through to do much damage to another robot. I am working on a linkage that will operate a 12lbs sledgehammer powered by a spring or bungee cord hitting a chisel that will drive into the armour of an opponent€™s robot but I don€™t think for one moment it can manage significant penetration into a material with a brinell hardness of over 400!!!

Tiberius IV went trough 3mm Hardox as if it was butter. 4mm wont pose much more problems either.

On Razers overrun 500W motor. That equals 2 kw. On 12V that is 166A. With an efficiency of 60% at best -series wound motor. That is 800W of heat being pumped in.
What can we do with 1200W. On 3000psi that gives us a flow of 3L/min. On 5000psi the flow lowers to 1.75L/min. And on the theoreticial max of 10 000psi .85l/min
If the piston pump was of the right size and with the right working range, the max flow would be something of 10l/min, and with the theoretical 10 000 psi max pressure. But I doubt Razer ever got over 5000. The arm was know to bend.

Tiberius IV is an awesome machine and its owners certainly know their stuff, With regards to the 3mm hardox event, do you know how far the beak of Tiberius went through, the further it goes the harder it becomes or am I wrong! Were you trying hard to puncture the armour or was it incidental damage. How many times have you tried to break through 4mm Hardox and can you think of another method of puncturing thick armour that dose not require hydraulics. This subject interests me as I feel the more a robot is made impregnable the more the flippers will rule the world!
PS I don€™t mind flippers there great its just I think other robots need to be developed to.

I know exactly how far Tiberious IV went trough the 3mm hardox of the top plate of TAN.
Untill the blunt point met a piece of 10mm hardox. And because Sam backed up.

And yes, Sam does know his stuff.

Storm II is probably the only robot capable to withstand a good crusher. But, the steel inner frame could buckle...

And puncturing the armor isnt needed to KO a robot. 1 lose wire, a chip janked from a PCB, a broken recieer crystal, a battery with a broken connection, a removed removable link, etc etc and you have 1 dead robot.
All perfectly achivable with shock damage, is that by ramming the opponent into the sidewall, launching it up 10 in the air or smashing it up with a 3 kg hammer.
Problem is, shock damage applies to the machines involved.

Also, I know, and have helped building a pneumatic crusher. The Swedish Mithril. With 8 tons, instant power from a 140mm bore 140mm stroke FP ram it demonstrated its power by snapping a steel benchvise in 2. Unfortunatly, the form of the beak/crusher wasnt the best in the world.

Thanks, I am pleased that the weapon has lived up to the design intention.

The force required to crush through a plate does usually increase as it gets deeper, but that is entirely down to the tip/arm design and how much metal is being displaced per degree of rotation and how effectively it can cut.

I think there is plenty of scope for an axe to be able to cause damage to heavy armour. Thzs axe is certainly the most powerful in the UK. Given a sharp axe head I recon it would cause fair damage to 3.2mm hardox.

As Mario has mentioned, there are lots of ways in which a knock out can be achieved through shock damage.

There is one consequence of building an effective tearing/piercing weapon that has not been raised, namely youll, potentialy, be doing a lot of expensive damage to your collegues machines and sending them home early from an event!
On Robot Wars the aim was to beat your opponent any way you could, ideally destroying their machine asap! However the shows we do now are more about us having fun and entertaining the audience. They might like to see real damage (ie Tiberious on King B at Burgess Hill) but it leaves less machines for the subsequent shows. Our bots take enough punishment as it is and often need repairs between shows to keep them going anyway!

Mike makes a very good point we are there to entertain the audience and have fun, my HW machine The Saint has never to my knowledge done any significant damage to any other robot ever. Its flipper fodder, a Tiberius toy with pit potential but still I can dream!!!!

Tiberius 4 was designed to fight spinners in robotwars, hence designing for max damage. I would not have built that machine for todays climate that is for certain. T4 was half built when we were told that there would not be a S8 of Robotwars. I nearly gave it up but decided to finish the project that was started.
I dont intend for T4 to cause damage at general events, but I cannot control the weapon and the drive. My dad was under strict orders not to crush into KB3.
Also dont under estimate the damage that big flippers do to SLA batteries through impact.

Damage, even in friendlies, is almost inevitable, Pressure mk3 lost Two SLAs and a motor controller at Birmingham two years ago when it was slammed into the side wall by Storm II (Ed did apollogise!) I have nothing against crushing claws, they add variety (all flippers wouldnt be as interesting to watch) but they are, perhaps, a little more difficult to be gentle with. Pressure mk3s armour and chassis was full of holes and patches as a result of encounters with Kan Opener, though nothing expensive was ever damaged.
Perhaps there should be a clause (claws?) in competition fight rules. If a fight involving a crusher goes to a judges decision the other bot should be checked for damage and if a punture would have hit something vital, killing the bot, but didnt because the crusher backed off, the win should go to the crusher.
Any thoughts anybody?

In whiteboards, youre right Mike. And Sam does it that way (even in full combat). Just a nip, and out again.

Flippers, spinners and axes all have a problem in that respect. If restricted/controled, those weapons are boring. These dont have any finesse. Or nothing or very painfull. Hydraulic crushers are actualy the most controlable weapons atm.

My thoughts on this subject are simple if you put your robot into the arena and it gets damaged that€™s life, if something expensive gets damaged that€™s worse. But it€™s a fighting game damage will happen!!!! And I go into the fight knowing no one has a grudge against me and any damage I receive is down to that moment. If there is a malicious act then the judges are to rule there decision is final. If I get involved in trying to decide if the damage is too great for a particular situation or event, then my opinion because it is my machine is going to be biased. In practice I have not so far come across any other roboteer that has gone into a Wight board fight with the intension of excessive damage to my or to my knowledge any other machine. In competition fights there is the compulsion to win and in doing that stop the other machine, but even then I found most times the roboteer reins back out of respect to the other persons repair costs. It€™s a fighting sport or hobby let the fights continue.

mike

i believe that the clause thing shouldnt be in competitions but maybe whiteboards but most whiteboards go to the audience?

but in competition if they back out they are stupid like tiberius at uk champs didnt back out of us but if it did then it would of risked losing the fight and the uk champs , even though we has alot of damage cost we wernt that angry as its the risk every1 should take while entering a serious competition. also kan opener vs thz it was the kind of fight of who ever gets who doesnt come out alive and that kind of what happened

ye its nice for people to back out if its going to cause £500+ but thats the risk everyone takes

John is right about the champs, by backing off we would have been sure to lose that battle.
BTW Respect to you guys, When we spoke abit before the fight and asked if you wanted the weapon to hold off you said nar well do proper full combat and put on a good show.

As for white boards I dont really care about winning or losing its just about putting on a show, preferably with the robots staying in the arena.

With regards to friendly tournements perhaps once a crusher has gripped the opposition, they should pause and ask the team if they submit at that point after which a friendly white board style crowd entertaining match can continue.

I am happy for machines to go all out against t4 in any event. Its all good testing. If something brakes I didnt build it well enough and was stupid not to use the full weight allowance!

BTW I like the fact that Saint is original and adds variety. I thought the joints which key the lid in are a great design.

Thanks Sam for your comments BTW I have replaced the bottom section of the saint for the next bash!!!