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I have just rumours and i want to know if its true. New RR rules: you the builder and associated team members are responsible for all claims and damages arising from constructing and competing with your robot.
Does this mean that we all need insurance now cause i cant afford it? people will need to know before the champs if they have to get insurance
Can you tell me which set of rules/paragraph#?
Sorry scrub that - found
(Message edited by anukhet on August 23, 2007)
I thought that as members of the FRA we are covered by their own insurance?
Gary, Im not good in the legaleze language, Bureaucratese neither.
The FRA insurance only covers legal issues arizing from the FRA rules that dont cover everything, and that only for the FRA members, not the robots, arena or audience.
In effect, the FRA insurance will get you a fancy lawyer. If youre a member, and did comply to every rule, dot and comma.
Now, the Arena owner and organisator are in deeper trouble if something happens. Because then or the arena failed to contain the problem, or the pits arent up to HS&e spec.
Debbie, I dont know how it is over there, but over here were insured by our family insurance. That is the same insurance that will cover the damages done by your kids while playing in your neighbors garden. If the insurance compagny doesnt use legalese and bureaucratic to wiggle from under the claim.
As far as general roboteers go, no you dont need insurance to go to an event run by most event organisers. The event organisers have their own insurance (public liability, usually around £2-5 million) that differs from the FRAs. Unless you are using your robot at some form of event that isnt already covered by public liability insurance, such as an exhibition or school then this is the only time you as a roboteer would need to get insurance.
Guys
Does anyone know my email or phone number?
The rules are exactly the same as last year, nothing has changed.
Roboteers do however have to take certain responsibility for their own actions at events, that€™s why we work hard to push Robot Cradles, and ALL safety devices.
Regards
John
http://www.RoamingRobots.co.ukwww.RoamingRobots.co.uk
John,
It would seem from reading your post that the certain responsibilty is that quoted from the contract .......to whit you the builder and associated team members are responsible for all claims and damages arising from constructing and competing with your robot.
This sentence or one similar was ... as I recall ...tacked onto Robot Wars contracts.
Would you suggest that we ( Competing Robot Teams ) should take out our own insurance to cover such an eventuality?
Regards Woody
Ok, pretend I am a 12 year old and want to understand this properly.
I have a heavyweight robot, i fight that robot in the arena with a FRA stamp of approval on it, and the robot was techchecked and approved, the sheet was signed by me and the tech check person. During a fight a flipper throws my heavyweight robot into a post of the arena and the arena collapses, injuring a arena marshall.
Who exactly is liable and who should have insurance?
BTW John .....My post isnt meant as a critisism of you or R.R.
I merely wish to be informed if you / R.R. or indeed the F.R.A. advise the need for additional Team insurance cover when competeing.
Neither is mine, but i would like a straight answer.
Please contact John directly with any questions regarding event insurance.
Edit: You are of course welcome to discuss event insurance in this new thread..
(Message edited by kane on August 23, 2007)
Ive spoken to Jonno to check the following:
The statement is the same as has been for years (Robot Wars and the likes).
If you turn up at an event, and your robot gets broken (lets say you were using it to compete), neither Roaming Robots or the FRA are responsible for that damage. Likewise, if you drop it on your foot, that is also your responsibility.
Building robots is dangerous.
A requirement for FRA event organisers is to provide public liability insurance for their events.
We also have a well established set of event guidelines and frequent event reports to ensure that all events are safe for roboteers and audience alike.
Uhm yes, but the wording is open for interpretation... are responsible for all claims and damages arising from constructing and competing with your robot.
If I were a lawyer... thats a barn-door opened as wide as the Hindenburg was big. I can clearly understand the nervousness of a newbie when she reads that lovely bit of prose. Because it states clearly that you and your team-mates can be held responsible for what your robot does. Period.
I dimly remember we had similar discussions before, quite some time ago. Wouldnt it be time to adapt the wording to something like: you the builder and associated team members are responsible for all claims and damages arising from constructing and competing with your robot when something happens to you because of said constructing and competing.
Would put minds to rest, that.
Im sure Jonno will be along later to clarify any points.
This is the new home for the discussion of event insurance.
If your robot is NOT built to the rules i guess it would be the event organisers fault because the tech checker shouldnt of let you compete. if the arena didnt meet the safety guildlines then its the Event organisers fault. If both the robot and the arena/event safety meet regulations and there was no negligence on either the roboteers or the event organisers part then the FRA would take the blame as there safety guildlines are not up to scratch. If you drive your robot in the pits and injure somebody it would be your fault for being negligent, also the event organiser would be questioned as to why it was allowed to happen.
thats my feeling about the situation anyway
Guys,
As Kane says, if anyone has any questions or queries they can email me, or more easier to get in contact as i have a busy life.... pick up the phone.
I am currently working on the UK champs, and am not prepared to get into a public debate regarding insurance.
As i have stated, Nothing Has Changed .
You all know where to find me, pick up the phone like most teams do, rather than creating an issue about it on here.
Lets get back to building and fighting robots!!!
John
http://www.RoamingRobots.co.ukwww.RoamingRobots.co.uk
If this has always been in place why has it not been picked up before now?
you the builder and associated team members are responsible for all claims and damages arising from constructing and competing with your robot. If I was a lawyer for an insurance place I would pick this to bits cause it will let me off paying out and money and allow someone to sue the roboteers.
Am I reading too much into this or am I right?
I doubt that youll get a definitive answer Debbie .... See the post above yours.
So its make your own judgement or ask John.
disclaimers dont mean you get away with things. Im not picking at roaming robots at all, just saying in general.
I think a good disclaimer (and the only one that would be of any use) would be one saying that basicly you battle at your own risk so you cant sue somebody for breaking your robot.
its not the robots that are my concerns.
I wasnt going to but....
It covers 3 things as far as im concerned.
1) If a robot gets destroyed RR are not to blame.
2) If a roboteer hurts themself in their shed, RR are not to blame.
3) If a robot gets dropped on someones foot in our pits, then RR are not to blame.
It was in the paperwork, exactly the same last year. Why it wasnt picked up then ive no idea... maybe people didnt bother reading into things so much, or maybe they just didnt read it. It was put in as it was a class 2 event, and there was a higher potential for robots being destroyed.
If a robot was flipped out of the arena, and it broke the outer structure, escaped and hurt an audience member, common sence says that it was the arena at fault, and so the event organisor gets sued. Not the roboteer who flipped the robot out, and certainly not the roboteers whos robot did the damage.
If it was me in that situation, i would hold my hand up and admit liability if i considered it my fault.
The same if a racing car breaks through a barrier at a track and hurts someone... would the driver of the car be sued.... no, the event organisor would because the track wasnt up to the job.
This is exaclty why the FRA was created, to reduce the risk of something ever happening.... and if you look back to when events were being run in school playgrounds, id like to see someone try and say it hasnt done its job !!
John
http://www.RoamingRobots.co.ukwww.RoamingRobots.co.uk
If a robot was flipped out of the arena, and it broke the outer structure, escaped and hurt an audience member, common sence says that it was the arena at fault, and so the event organisor gets sued. Not the roboteer who flipped the robot out, and certainly not the roboteers whos robot did the damage.
As it should be. But your insurance might read the statement that you have written in the rules and interpret it, as I have done, to mean that you are (hence they can) pass the buck on the robot responisble for the accident.
I agree fully with what Debbie said the the last post. John this is not calling into question your ethics, but just the way the 3 things you have said above are phrased. The statment in the rules is worded badly if that is what it is supposed to mean.
Personally I would like to see that paragraph of the rules reworded before the start of the competition.
I agree. The statement in the rules doesnt seem to mean what RR wants it to mean (this is not a dig at RR, just my opinion). I think a mild rewording of the rules would sort this problem out once and for all.
Perhaps this?
You the builder and associated team members are responsible for all claims other than those directly attributable to the Event organiser
That sounds a lot more like what you intended indeed Jonno. Nice choice of words Woody.
Sounds spot on to me
After reading all this on the forum about rules, we find it very surprising that this has not been picked up before, due to the fact that these rules are no different to the Mentorn rules used in Robot Wars.
You may realise this is me John Team Scorpion, not Sarah Team Batter. I would not consider holding anyone responsible for what I do in my shed when i have the nerve to test Scorpions disc. I am solely responsible for my actions and always will be.
We just find it very surprising to see this suddenly become an issue. Unless society has changed so much that self responsibility doesn€™t exist anymore, if so, this will be such a shame because this is our hobby, we are all responsible for our own actions, and should not be looking for a scapegoat with all our the event organisers or the FRA.
John Bell - Team Scorpion
John, I think things have gotten a bit mixed up. The statement as intended is fine but also confusing as it is not direct enough. I am perfectly happy that if we do stupid things then we are responsible. But if we stick to the rules and something still goes wrong and injures an audience member, who is legally responible. Any insurance company will look for a way out, and the statement says that if we enter the competition we agree to a rule that says we are responisble for all claims and damages. This is a clear exit route for the insurance company, this may then land a roboteer with a law suit and as far as I know non of us have insurance to cover our robots.
I have been in touch with Jonno and am happy that this section should be removed from the rules, so as far as I am concerned the situation is ok. So lets get on with the champs, hmm... better get the robot built then.