To those who care to read

finally it arrives my rant,..........

As Ive mentioned in another thread, im leaving to go travelling for 7 months, Australia and new zealand mainly.
Ive been away for a while with illness and robot damage so ive not competed since march and have missed being involved.
My plan was to still have tanto being run while i was away but have decided against it now, for many reasons mainly because of the lack of community we have here.
I dont know whats going on and why we have this 2 or 3 way divide but if were goin to survive we need to pull together and support each and everyone as a whole and not let the bickering and infighting take control like it most certainly has.
Its down to serveral people really and after much sole searching ive decided to name names stuff it , its about time people were made accountable for bringing out sport down this year.

Robots live and roaming robots have got to put the community first and work together and the bulls**t thats been spread has got to stop you know who u are, it comes from both camps and it wont take a genius to work out who it may be.
Sorry but whats the FRA doin to resovle this? as a member since day one and former weight rep i think i have a right to voice my opinion on this (btw delete or remove this post and itll be reposted again and again til its seen)
On the FRA please get your collective finger out of your collective a-r-s-e and start allowing new technologies quicker aka Spektrum and Lithium, its perfectly ok for cars but not for us? funny that, they are in much dangerous situation and under-go much stricter tests to be deemed safe in cars.

I will return but if the community isnt making progress in resolving its issues i certainly will not be returning for long and more and more people will be leaving, this is hard for me to get out of ive been around you lot for the best part of 10 years but i hate watchin it all destroy itself.

maybe a roboteer union to help protect the interests of the community??? just a thought

guys the past 10 years or so have been a pleasure ive made some great friends people like Jonno John Lear The whole tilly family Dave Moulds Gary Cairns Stu the coopers to name a few so many people i can name theres such a good community its a shame its going to the dogs

see you in 7 months ill send you a postcard

All I can say is:
Together we stand, divided we fall!

Could not agree more Mike.

lets just try and answer some of Craigs points.

A. Spectrums are allowed. The FRA has been waiting for its expert to write up these rules on radio since the new year. It could be the case that we have to turn to another source.
B. Lithiums. With the known fire problem with lithium polymer cells people are very wary of their use.(At least one set went on fire while I was at Robogames in the states)
This has made the FRA have a cautious approach to the new Lithium Ion cells. It is my belief that these cells will not pose the same problem as lithium polymer types.
These new lithium cells are fitted to vehicles and used by De-Walt and Bosch for drill batteries.
These user manufactures have spent an immense amount of money in perfecting their individual technology. We roboteers do not have the funds to really sort out individual battery formulations.
The FRA governing body agreed to run a trial with two teams with a relatively low consumption and two teams with a high power consumtion.
These teams are Mute and Terrohurtz for low power and Das Gepack and Kan-opener for high power.
All who have agreed to do the trials have undertaken to release all information to all teams as and when there are some results.

Three of the teams are going down the route of dismantling De-Walt style packs and reassembling them into bot packs. The manufacturer of the cells is not happy with this route. To make bot packs spot welded tabs have to be removed and then links have to be soldered on. This is difficult because you have to solder to aluminium casings.
The other team has bought cells without tabs and is exploring a connection system that does not require soldering.(apart from the link connection wires)

These batteries do not like going out of a voltage balance with each other and require balancing every so often. It is this that is the technical problem with our sort of useage.

John Reid is doing some really good work on your behalf on the balancing problem. Kees Sicking of Das Gepack is an electronics engineer who could also add a great deal to the cure of this problem.

Commercial chargers are now availiable but the associated multicell balancing is not.( We are told Sept release)
Balancing is best done in conjunction with a charging function.

Terrohurtz has run these batteries for two events without problems so far.

To the point Roaming Robots v Robots Live

Robots Live is relatively new as an event organiser and it was always enevitable that some roboteers would opt to go only to their events and others only to Roaming Robots events.

To a degree it is good that there are two heavyweight capable event organisers, it gives us the roboteers choice.

The FRA executives view is that the roboteers and the FRA itself should not get involved in the commercial wrangling between event organisers.

This alledged style of competion between commercial organisations could be the death of our sport.

The FRA is the roboteers union, it is democratic, all of the members have a say. It is unfortunate that most teams keep their heads down when it comes to having some input. Most of the controversy surrounding the FRA either comes from hot head non members or event organisers having a bat at another event organiser.

The FRA executive this spring and summer have doing work that the FRA should be doing which is promotion of our sport.

At the UK champs this year, not only will we hold our AGM to which all members are invited but we have TV producers visiting the event as FRA guests.
It is a great pity that a good number of you are at a competing event and missing the opportunity to attend your own FRA heavyweight championships and AGM.
That is the commercial reality for you.

The large majority of people are still attending both RR and RL events when they can, and most teams are not politcally minded. As a result they see the FRA as more of a government which they dont want to get involved with. We all should it is a forum for us to voice our concerns in person and get a direct response.

From my point of view it is fair game for anyone to hold an event, the FRA should not need to take any action(as Andy has said) unless it is an issue where safety or the future of our sport is concerned.

But I agree congratulate Craig for his rant because he is right there is a divide, but I fear that it too late. I would like to see people are each others events, to help support us all.

I write this just as an individual reading this thread, and nothing more than an observation on what has been written. I do not wish to provide ammunition for anyone to turn this into a slanging match about anything other than the topic !

.... Am I the only person struggling to reconcile the following in Andy Kanes post

the FRA itself should not get involved in the commercial wrangling between event organisers.

and

It is a great pity that a good number of you are at a competing event and missing the opportunity to attend your own FRA heavyweight championships

It does seem the FRA struggle not to critisise those who do not attend its preferred event :sad: This kind of speak from the FRA only serves to make people question the impartiality of the organisation.

Appears clear why sentiment like that in Craigs post is bubbling under the surface.

Ed

(Message edited by storm on August 09, 2007)

i have an idea..............

why dont robots live and roaming robots toss a coin and who ever wins hold an event, (tossing a coin seems the only fair way) where every roboteer with a robot attends getting together the whole roboteering community. there we can all get together and have one big event for US the roboteers. yes get a crowd in and pay for the event but then if there is any monies to be made let there be prizes and mabee prize money for various competitions. once a year do 1 event for the community then after that go to which ever event suits. i am sure that grown adults can get together and arrange this and i am sure the community can get together on mass and keep the sport well and truly on the map. so com on event organisers get together and do something for the sport and us roboteers.

thats my two pence worth

regards

shane.........your friendly neighbourhood roboteer :)

shane i think that is what the Uk, Euro and World champs are.

Event organisers are given the chance to put a bid in to host each of these, I think then the FRA take a vote to make a decision as to who they think would be best to host such an event.

If it were up to me there would be a Uk champs every year, with the world champas every 4 years and euro every other 4 years. that way it doesnt make the UK champs like another sunday event (which i felt the fw uk this year didnt feel like a big special event for what ever reason?) and yet we have a bigger championship every 2 years (like it is in other sports such as the olympics and world/euro cup)

i think at the end of the day as soon as you get commercial interests involved you will always get the banter. Forget what people say about we only do it to help the community its a load of cobblers :)

i just dont get it all. you know what s.o.d it all i am fed up with it.

Craig, we have missed you too and I wish you every success in whatever you decide to do and have a great time on your travels - especially stay healthy :wink:

As for the divisions that you describe - the community is growing and its only human nature for little groups to form within it. What you describe as bulls**t only matters to the perpetrators, antagonists and wanabee perpetrators and antagonists of this silliness.

The sport will carry on in spite of the bulls**t. Does that 1% have the savvy to realise this? I dont know. Whether they carry on like this or finally decide that it isnt worth all the hassle is entirely up to them. The rest of us will carry on with or without them - its their choice.

The other 99% of us just get on with doing what we want and love to do - no favouritism, no bulls**t, no problem. What really matters is the safe continuation, development and growth of the sport irrespective of whos who.

As a new member of the roboting community I find this line of discussion disturbing but not unexpected, in all communities of like-minded people you get groups who don€™t agree with each other€™s ideas on how things should be done.
I€™ve found this in car clubs, sports clubs and other communities; the thing is to acknowledge people have different ways of doing things and expressing themselves, and make allowances for this. Offence may have been caused but not intended.
From the outside of this split between the two operators it€™s a situation of one has been around for a long time and the other has started recently the new kid on the block. This is a change that is going to take time to find its equilibrium. The more people take sides the longer and more damaging this disagreement will become,
The two providers I know would not like any hostile conflict between them or the roboting community to continue, as this would affect the shows and the commercial ability of both companies to grow.
I have been at events from both providers and found them and other roboters to be extremely kind and welcoming. I am not on either side. I like a good number of other roboteers think there is nothing to be gained by winning an argument and in doing so loose a good friend.

I agree with Graig, Robots live and roaming robots have to work things out together.

None of us are buyest to one or the other (afaik), but it is obvious that some animosity exists. I dont care who started what and why someone stopped talking to someone else, you are all mature enough to sort things out amongst your self. The FRA need not to get involved in this.

As far as the attendance of roboteers in Hemel H., I dont believe that people refuse to go to Haven because of the Hemel Hempstead event. It is more likely that roboteers are not going because it is a long way away for most teams, and not everyone is as keen to travel that far. Even I had to do some soul searching to decide if it is worth it. To me it is, but I dont hold it against the other teams for not showing, Ive seen the map.

For me it would be a travel thing plus the fact that the UK Champs is all during the week when there is no chance of the misses standing for me booking a week off work to go play robots.
Robots Live is at the weekend and a more central location.

I see these as 2 main factors (looking from the outside as i am :))

Just my thoughts

Im totaly unbiased, Im going to both, even it means a 16 hour total transport time. Thats being dedicated to the sport (not saying others arent, I obviously dont have the same restrictions as, say Glen does, as he has to work).

I just hope that all this squabbling will stop soon and the nice freindly atmosphere returns to the sport.

Long Live robot combat!

more for the rant............

i think there should be a spending cap, stop this silly £12000 robots turning up, you shouldnt be allowed to spend more than £5000

be amazed how much money you can save when you do the work yourself and dont get it made by a fancy company

Tanto is resonalbly competitive and it cost less than £1000 to make you dont need £3000 titanium jaws Andy thats just silly

ooo im getting spitefull in my old age

Im not trying to have a go at certain people directly its jus my opinion and for once im getting it all off my chest, its been like a bra of opresion and now its time to burn my bra!

This disscussion has been done to death. My view is two fold, firstly how do you put a price on your own time also if you get things done or parts sponsored. Secondly it is good to have something for the rest of us to aim for. Turbulence won the champs last year, that didnt cost £12000, probably about £2500.

Putting pricetags on robots is something I disliked from day one. Naming prices during live events is even worse, because when prices of robots like Storm II (as a random expample) get mentioned, people in the audience that might be tempted to build one hear that and go oh heck no im not going to put up that kind of money for that.

If someone or some group wants to spend 10k pounds on a robot, I have no problem with that. But for every 10k robot there are 3 2k robots that can beat it. And that is what i like about this sport. The richest teams dont automatically win.

As Leo and ed said, its not about how much money you spend, its what you use and how you use it that matters. Storm 2 is only so expensive because of all the parts that have been made by people other than team storm. 1 inch of expensive titanium costing thousands isnt any better in this situation where spinners arent allowed than 3-4mm steel costing nothing.
If you dont want to build a robot yourself you have to be prepared to spend ALOT of money for something that most people could build for free.

Careful guys..... in life we all turn to experts when our practical knowledge wont do, whether its getting a gas cooker installed or getting a plumber in. To suggest that we did not build Storm II because some parts were manufactured elsewhere isnt fair.

Did you build your batteries (you could have done), did you build your speed controller (you could have done), did you bore our your own rams (you could have done)... the list goes on.

People play to their strengths and avoid the weaknesses. Our strength was ideas, CAD ability and funding. Our weakness was a lack of time and machine skills. Logical solution was to outsource were you have weaknesses.

Be careful before you start attacking people and their approach to a problem (building a winning robot) just because they didnt take the same route as you may have done.

Perhaps we should ban engineers from building robots as they have strengths others dont have ?

Ed (and on behalf of the rest of the team)
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

(Message edited by storm on August 10, 2007)

im not bothered what teams spend on machines, when i went to my first event, i saw all these fancy chargers, fans to cool batteries etc....take captain scarlet, prodigy or block of wood for example,i know their only feathers but finishing 2nd,3rd and 4th, in the uk champs. prodigy cost pennies, so i guess did block of wood, and then captain scarlet which is sold in kit form finishing 2nd this year and winning last year. it goes to show that you dont need to spend thousands to do well. i almost enjoyed the fact i could beat machines so well engineered/impressive looking. if i was so concerned about £3000 titanium jaws or thousands of pound storms then i wouldnt enter the event, but surely beating them is a good feeling being on a budget? i dont see nothing wrong with telling the audiance that you spend thousands as it shows your dedicated and serious about the sport your in, BUT it would be nice to say that you can build a cheap robot that can do well also, and maybe give examples at the same time. Im glad this sport isnt like football or F1, where its a case of who has the most money wins, as where would it leave us who dont have as much to spend. you can watch a grand prix, first race of the season and know who will be in the top 4, at least with this sport you have no idea who will finish where, which gives me an incentive to know it could be me and anyone has a chance.

also i have no idea regarding the bickering and what not, between event organisers, but all i do know if it wasnt for people like xfm,robochallenge, rr etc etc.... i wouldnt have anywhere to compete. i see things i dont agree with but without Andy Kane, the fra, this forum etc... i wouldnt be building robots

(Message edited by ady on August 10, 2007)

too late to edit!! im just voicing my opinion freely, and this is how i feel, i have read all the posts and simply posted my thoughts.

i was talking to me wife after driving home from the robochallenge event about this, ok so yes perhaps their is money to be made in holding events, i dont know? but you must still be very committed to have all that hassle and stress running these events. rather you guys than me, sorry!:)



(Message edited by ady on August 10, 2007)

(Message edited by ady on August 10, 2007)

Ed, for the record I used Storm II as an expample for being an expensive robot. I pass no judgement on either you or your team, nor on the robot itself.

What I do object to is making it sound like all robots cost thousands of pounds even though that is not always the case.

Putting a price cap on bots eh? Lets have a bit of a reality check.

I will take my new heavyweight as an example.

-Both my eteks were second hand from different sources, do I count them as brand new as both were unused and so declare them as brand new list prices or as the price I paid?

- My custom gearbox cases. I had a CNC mill quote of £1500 so therefore they are worth that. I got them done for a lot less. So which price do I quote?

- My speed controllers. Got them for far less than the new price. Again which price do I say?

- Batteries. Cost me nothing but a new set of hawkers will cost you a fair bit.

To try and cost a robot. It doesnt work.

If someone wants to build something fancy that costs a lot then by all means go ahead. Doesnt make a blind bit of difference in the arena.

Lets keep the comments mature and impersonal.

i paid 10 quid for speedo.....5 quid for ram....5 quid for motors...free armour...nicked at gocart and got the drive...all the other bits cost me 40 quid and i have a fully working battle ready robot that will win the champs for 50 sniffs. :)

Shane add that up agin. It comes to £60, not £50. Still, well done for being able to make a bot for that sort of cost. :)

i lied :)

Gary has hit the nail on the head with Doesnt make a blind bit of difference in the arena.

Thats the reality.

...except of course that Storm 2 and Typhoon, two of the most expensive robots ever made in the UK were the dominant machines in RW7! There are other factors of course; good design, good setup and good driving being the main ones, all of which Turbulance had in spades at last years UK Champs, but financial resources and sophisticated engineering capabilities are a distinct advantage all else being equal. Personally I have no interest in price capping robots and agree with Garys comments on that score- its not feasable even if it was considered desirable.
Im happy to see builders express their enthusiasm and creativity in what ever way suits them best. I like seeing the results of imaginative builders with or without significant budgets and I think the sport benefits hugely from go for broke designs that push the envelope and show what can be done.

Its the powergames that we dont like.

Typhoon, two of the most expensive robots ever made in the UK were the dominant machines in RW7!

Typhoon 2 was actually remarkably cheap and only cost a few thousand to put together. We chased a number of sponsors for most of our parts.

There is also the fact that typhoon 2 was only dominant after the first round of its heat. We lost our qualifying heat and were brought into the TV show as cannon fodder. After a few small problems were sorted it worked well but as I said before, its what happens in the arena that counts.

Yeah, I think its irrevent in price for a robot. And you got to remember that thousands of pounds is no substitute for skill and experience.

Gary, since Im agreeing with you about the problems of costing robots, given things like sponsorship, Idve thought it obvious that I was talking about the real cost of Typhoon, not what your team actually paid for it. I nearly wrote expensively made or in real terms but thought that was unnecessarily pedantic... In fairness Im taking it as fact that BAe made the main ring and factoring in the astronomic cost of doing that as a business transaction rather than as sponsorship. Maybe I heard wrong. In any event even a few thousand would still put it among the most expensively made UK robots. The point I was making (or thought I was), is that extreme engineering solutions can give options that are not available at pocket money prices. Its no coincidence that most of the top-flight UK heavyweights would be expensive to make- whether or not the builders actually forked out their own money. Its not a coincidence that they are all well designed and driven either! Im not fussed what people spend on their machines, as Ive already said.

David, I didnt suggest that money is a substitute for skill and experience. I said: ...financial resources and sophisticated engineering capabilities are a distinct advantage all else being equal. Not that suprising or controversial a statement Id have thought. If Woody and I had a few hundred quid to spend, Ka-Pow! would almost certainly be a tougher, smaller and more competitive robot. Alans considerable skills and expertise and my more modest abilities would not have changed at all.

(Message edited by lex on August 13, 2007)

Oh no, I wasnt refering to your post, I was refering to the capping in price thing. Or have I missed something here. :D

ok whos up for banning robots i dont like then? its not a long list
any takers? no? fine ill jus bugger off to australia then

good luck craig on your travels,there is a young boy who is really going to miss you.good luck and all our love from team tilly...pete,jackie(mum2),jess,and a big hug from shane xxxxxxxxx

Bye Graig, have a safe yourney, have fun, and keep in touch.

bye mr danby and have fun

Banning robots you dont like eh?.........
Now theres a thought - any advantage to me I will take gladly :)

Keep strong, stay sober(ish) and PLEASE stay in one piece :kiss:
Love Karoline

Dont tinker with the plane and get back safely.

ha i dont drink anymore ill be good havent be injured since colchester ish time just been very very ill
lifes been not so good but im glad to be able to have the oppertunity to go off to oz, and i wouldnt be craig without taking an antweight where ever i go so there we go

best of luck to all in the uk champs but gotta say Shane, Pete Lale and co, and Dave Moulds are my faves to win

and Pete give mr Shane Lale (future heavyweight champion of the world) a big hug from me

Good luck Craig on your journeys, but I do not believe you have stopped drinking, that is madness!

On to more pressing issues, owning two of the robots that I€™m sure would be banned under a cost limit, I naturally disagree, but trying to see a non- bias point of view I still disagree with adding a cost limit.

As Craig and others rightfully stated, there is a divide in robteers and I fear a cost limit would weaken the sport, as many roboteers would have to rebuild or pack up roboteering, in turn create a bigger divide.

So in short I disagree with a cost limit, maybe materials such as titanium and hardox should be banned to make the fights more even, this would also count both my robots out and Craig€™s robot for that matter, but it will stop boring boxes entering the arena and maybe bring back some originality and ingenuity to the sport.

Just a few thoughts
Tom:)