FRA urgent announcement

Today 20th Jan 2007, a meeting was held at the FRA building for the presentation of an updated Robotic Event Safety Guideline document.

Present, Robots Live,Robochallenge,Roaming Robots,XFM and FRA executive.

It is normal that a motion be put to the FRA governing body for their approval and after this a date for implementation. (Usually three months)

All the event organisers agreed that safety was of the highest priority and have decided to implement the guidelines with immediate effect.

This is how it effect€™s roboteers.

ARENA€™S WITH A FABRIC STYLE ROOF.

€œSpinning weaponry of any sort is not permitted in a class XX arena, all axe weaponry must have a safety tether fitted in order to run€

It applies to both featherweights and heavyweights.

Event organizers are endeavoring to put on extra events in 2007 for featherweight spinning robots.

Currently there are not any arena€™s or any known in build that will hold a heavyweight spinner safely.

It was also agreed that for 2007 the robot build rules concerning carrying cradle€™s and sharp edge protection would be enforced on a 1strike and out basis.
Roboteers have a duty to be part of the safety regime.

We have been busy preparing the safety guidelines of late and have not sent our usual year end message regarding rejoining the FRA.

Membership fee is still £10 per year.

Our bills to keep the association going have to be paid by 31/3/07. If you have not read our meeting minutes you will not be aware of the fact that if you are a past or existing member the membership fee for joining after the 31/3/07 is £20.
Exclusions to the above are new member teams and roboteers from mainland Europe the membership fee is £10 at any time of the year.

Membership cards will be distributed starting 9/10 Feb at the Robots Live event.

Next FRA meeting sat 24th Feb at Daventry

Our year should be an active one, with more event organiser€™s, more events than ever, in more different locations there is plenty of choice for every one.

Can you please post which Arenas we can use Feather spinners in so we can plan which events we can attend for getting time of work.

Does this mean that feather spinners wont be allowed to compete in Swindon?

It would help with regards to membership fees if you had a means of credit/debit card payment available. Let me know if you want any help setting anything up.

Also if I read correctly the Robo Challenge arena is the only one able to contain featherweight spinners at the moment. Previous of this meeting it was my understanding that most other arenas in current development were to have net roofs - It will be interesting to hear from these organisers whether they will make any changes to accomodate new guidelines if feather spinners are to continue all year round (which could bring up its own pros/cons discussion in itself).

Can every organiser now state in their event announcement what class arena and event they provide?
Im sure our arena is up to all spinners; big steel beams as arena barriers, entry penn with 2 loading doors, 12 mm Polycarb all around and a HDPE roof in the making.

Dutch Robot Games

Morning all,

As Ewan has stated the Robo Challenge arena is the only current arena that feather spinners can be used at. It is likely that a second one is to be built and if the mods required are done there is the potential of the XFM arena. I believe that a number of events will be published as the event organisers are able to arrange them.

Leo, as the event organisers have already adopted the new guidelines it means that any arena with a fabric style roof cannot operate spinning weaponry in any weight category as of yesterday.

Regarding memberships we need an application form as well to confirm your details have not changed. with the small amount fo transactions it is easier if it is a cheque and post or cash at an event.

For the DRG it would be best if you had the document to comment on. This will be sent as soon as is able. For more information contact info@fightingrobots.co.uk

im starting to wonder myself if i should join as a member this year as i have a spinning feather myself and the latest post has me wondering what to do. i dont see much point in paying membership when im really limited in events to attend.

XFM support the FRAs desire to improve safety at events and we already have a number of improvements to implement that the FRA has highlighted.

However, we did not agree the changes raised at the meeting as suggested above, we stated that we would take time to consider the proposals and would respond accordingly.

Currently XFMs view is that it is not economically or technically viable to upgrade our arena structure in line with these proposals (10mm walls and 5mm poly roof) and we are considering our position.

The FRA did not release any details of the guidelines prior to the meeting (despite XFMs request) and we were not keen to make an impulse reaction on the spot. Whilst this means a delay in deciding XFMs intentions, I trust roboteers will respect this stance and give us time to decide the best way forward for us.

Please bear with us whilst we look at the options open to us - and all options are being looked at, from ceasing XFMs events to limiting what we do.

Ed, Rick and Anne
http://www.extremefightingmachines.comhttp://www.extremefightingmachines.com

Membership of the FRA is not about just attending events.
What you need to be a member for is,

The ability to post on this forum (it costs)
The regulated set of robot build rules,event safety guidelines throughout the country. (it costs)Insurance.

Imagine five different event organisers with five different sets of build rules, with five different sets of safety standards.

Adrian the choice is yours but you certainly do not pay FRA membership to attend events.
The event organisers prefer you to have FRA membership as it gives them extra insurance and piece of mind.The FRA would not entertain claims from non members for use of our rules and regulations.A mixture members and non members at an event could be potentially a legal minefield

The Robo Challenge arena meets the current saftey standards set by the FRA which allows us to run full combat events with spinners.

We are currently planning more full combat live events to stop the spinners out there rusting in the garage & will be announceing our Robo Challenge events shortly.

Kind regards

James Cooper
Robo Challenge
events@RoboChallenge.co.uk

before this announcement i was starting to feel that every time i watch a video on here from a recent event it was just full of flippers, and now with this its just going to add to that, for my first time in 10 years i actually think that recent fights i have watched were well....... just boring. this is a personal opinion no offence intended. perhaps im just getting too old for the sport:lol:

(Message edited by ady on January 21, 2007)

And what would happen if an organiser just doesnt care about the FRA rules and regulations about arenas?

Robots Live! Position is as follows; in order to meet the new FRA guidelines been set and therefore to satisfy our insurers, we cannot allow spinning weapons in any weight category to run in our arena. This is unfortunate as we have a number of featherweight spinners applied for attend our event, who before these changes would have been allowed to run.

As our shows and events are mainly heavyweight orientated this doesn€™t affect us as much as others, but will mean the public will loose the chance to see spinners in action, which is unfortunate considering the heavyweight field is already limited because of this.

Our opinion is that it is not financially viable to upgrade the arena to run featherweight spinners; according to the new rules set the arena would require the same as if running heavyweight spinners. Bringing the arena up to these specifications (10mm Polycarbonate sides and 5mm Polycarbonate roof), would mean doubling the costs of an already expensive project and increasing costs of running events.

Robots Live! Agree that changes needed to be made regarding safety, as standards have been deteriorating over the past few years, and we plan to add many features not seen before on a heavyweight arena. But we currently have to comply with FRA guidelines in order to retain our Public Liability Insurance, therefore we have no choice but to not allow any spinners to run until; we are in a position to upgrade our arena, which we don€™t see happening in the foreseeable future, or if the FRA guidelines are changed.

To correct the FRA€™s first post, our event is the 10th & 11th February, not the 9th & 10th as stated. We also did not agree the changes raised at the meeting as suggested.

Robots Live!
http://www.robotslive.co.ukwww.robotslive.co.uk

Canvas roofs are not so safe really, even with the itty-bitty-teeny feathers with spinners.

There has been discussion about the roofs for some time now, edging on organisers like the DRG to already start doing something about it and not wait for the new rules to go into effect. We knew the rules would be changed anyway.
The problem is money and workshoptime, which is why it takes so long to have the new roofs installed.

i am always concerned for safety as much as others. its just hard when you invest serious money into your machine to find that the audience dont get to see it, even a feather can cost serious money and now it may rust in the garage.

Unfortunatly due to recent events there is no choice in haveing to upgrade the saftey standard.

We have known that the arena guildlines were not sufficiant for thier use and so went into testing arena roof materials ourselves months ago. The outcome was both shocking and scarey as all the material roof samples we tested were totally unacceptable for running any type of spinner.

To back the issue of new build rules I dont belive anybody raised objections to the new guildlines as it was clear that the previous ones were not at a high enough standard and with events coming up shortly it could be dangerous to continue without the new build rules.

Just my oppinion, now we can move forward with a higher safety standard. Adrian, there will still be events that you can run your machine. I am planning some as we speak and im sure other event organisers will sooner or later upgrade thier arenas to.

(Message edited by james...venom on January 21, 2007)

Obviously this debate will continue for some time, however it is clear that everyone agrees that arena safety is paramount for the continuation of our sport.

The arena safety standards discussed clearly offer a standard of safety that can be built on rather than offering a standard thats works ok until it goes wrong.

Roofs particularly are going to require further research as this is clearly something that people seem to take too lightly. I would suggest that for further discussion, some empirical evidence is compiled to demonstrate a safe meterial that can afordably be used by all arenas. Particularly such that should allow all types of robots to compete equally in events.

ok thanks james, perhaps i got the wrong impression. i took it that i wont be able to use my feather at any events in 2007.

perhaps what i should of said was does this mean my robot is as much use as a choclate teapot?

(Message edited by ady on January 21, 2007)

Hi Alan
Sorry about this but we will have to withdraw from your event.

Kane - As James stated above, Robo Challenge have done alot of testing with roof materials to find a suitable solution for conatining spinners. So far there doesnt seem to be a cheaper solution than polycarb, or atleast not a viable one.

If there are other materials that people beleive would be sufficient for arena roofing, and cheaper than polycarb you could get intouch with James to get some testing done on samples to help other event organisers with being able to take the next step in arena safety.

I would be most grateful if you could make your testing methods and findings available for the governing body to discuss.

We did tests with HDPE sheets.
Even with crossbow bolts nor competition bow arrows we couldnt penetrate a plate of 5mm in a flexible stand- like we intend for the roof. from a distance of 1 meter.
And I dare to say, those weapons are especialy penetrating...

A test with a pneumatic ram was equaly disappointing concerning damage on the sheet.

A direct hit from a serious disk at speed will tear it, but , if we take this as a criterium, we need roofs of 6mm hardox or simular.

I can, with a 5 kg sledgehammer dent it permanently, but it just deforms, no penetration seen. Shallower dents disappear after a while.

HDPE is relatively cheap, lightweight-250 grams lighter than polycarbonate for 1 dm³ , easy to work with, and the right grade is resilient against UV light and wont go brittle.

For a roof, the weight is also a concern. Even in the light HDPE (lighter than the lorry sails we see now in use) the full roof of the DRG arena is 600 kg heavy. And that is without the supports.

I shared these findings with several people, of wich one is Grant Cooper.

Roaming Robots€™s position€¦..

Obviously each of us, as event organisers take safety very seriously, and there has been a lot of work been put into producing the new arena guidelines.

This is not about spoiling the events, or stopping people from using their robots, it is about making sure we have a future, making sure that our hobby can continue for as long as possible in a safe manner.

At the meeting to my recollection there was no one present who did not agree with the new set of safety standards. Of course we all have alterations to make, some more than others.

Unfortunately this does mean that we too will not be able to run Feather Weight spinners for 2007 in our main arena. While I am obviously very disappointed that we will loose the excitement of the spinners to our show, I do understand and agree with the reasons behind it.

Lets be realistic, going back even as little as a year, and we didn€™t have such powerful spinners, and we have all noticed that they are getting more and more powerful as each one is redeveloped.

While each of the organisers needs to go away and think about its position, and how they can possibly upgrade the arena to a class 2. The current Roaming Robots main arena will not be able to at this stage. The concept of a full class 2, hard roof arena is both unpractical and unfeasible in the current climate.

What the future brings in RR, you will have to just wait and see !!!!

Roaming Robots has always, and will continue to fully support the FRA and the work which goes on behind the scenes which roboteers may not see or know about.
I would think it would be suicide for an event organiser to ignore the information they have been shown, as I€™m sure the insurance would be completely invalid. This is a situation i hope we never face!!!


John
Roaming Robots

im having people withdrawing from my event due to changes that were neither made known to me prior to the meeting, nor since. Who exactly was present at this meeting and who voted yes/no? More to the point, who dictated the minimum standards? and why are they qualified to do so?

Family comittments prevented me attending the meeting, as I said they might, so I will hold off on an official comment until I know exactly what the new GUIDELINES are, and their implications.

until I make a formal decision, I will still be allowing featherweight spinner to run in my events, and as my arena spec has not been made public yet, there is no reason to object.

I ask anyone who has withdrawn from my event to reconcider, as my intent is still to run your robots until further notice.

Robots pulling out of events, and roboteers thinking of quitting? not the best results from a safety meeting.

James - I did not attend the meeting, but to shed some light on why these guidlines for running spinners has been changed Ill explain.

We did some testing....(seperate testing was also done by the FRA)
At 100mph - with a 250g projectile of steel, 1 daimetre.
This went clean through 12mm plywood, infact it didnt just go through, it smashed through even when sideways!! It was just about stopped by 18mm plywood, but it did penetrate the other side.
All the other materials except for polycarb including the very tough lorry curtains, even two layers with stanless steel meshing didnt slow the projectile down at very low speeds!

Im sure, even you dont agree with the new guidlines that there must be something done to stop the possibility of things escaping from an arena this easily - to be honest i was extreamly shocked by how badly any materials stood up to impacts.
If you run spinners in an arena not to these specifications, then you run the risk of serious injury and insurance will be invalid.

Roaming Robots has always, and will continue to fully support the FRA and the work which goes on behind the scenes which roboteers may not see or know about.
I would think it would be suicide for an event organiser to ignore the information they have been shown, as I€™m sure the insurance would be completely invalid. This is a situation i hope we never face!!!

*************************************************

Jonno, I doubt that. If your insurance is happy with your current safety standards, who is going to tell them they are wrong?

While I agree that spinners give the audience one of their biggest kicks, their unfortunate absense from forseeable future events will at least allow new blood to have a slightly easier introduction into the sport - surely thats a beneficial by-product of the new guidelines?

Out of interest, do these guidelines apply to cadet class spinners as well? With the restrictions on motor power and spinning mass, wouldnt cadet class spinners pose as lower safety risk than a 2kg-ish Mag-powered spinner? If arenas need to be upgraded to cope with the super-spinners, are the current conditions of arenas not suitable for the lower power cadet spinner? Just wondering what the view of this is?

removed.
cant be bothered arguing

(Message edited by jamesb on January 21, 2007)

James I think you should repost that! You have a valid point as I was just disgussing the same thing with a few other people and was thinking of posting it myself!

im done with conflict bex, so sorry bex, im out of this one.

It is recognised that the 2003 arena build guildlines are insufficiant. Now that tests have proven it, any event organiser that would continue to run events knowing this would make their insurance invalid.

I would like to say thanks to Andy Kane and Steve Johnson for takeing time out to perform tests and revise the guildlines.

Dont appologise I just thought that was a very valid point i was applauding here with the fact you said it!

Oops. So we do have an authority problem here ?
Do the insurance companies know about this ? Have they written any reports about this ? Which insurance companies do or did ? Who were the experts ?

What clearly irks some people is that they are event organisers and didnt know about what this meeting was going to decide on, effectively forced now to either upgrade asap (impossible in financial and often physical ways), refuse spinners (poor roboteers !) or get withdrawals from competitors (poor organisers !). The sudden implementation of the new rules certainly drops like a bomb. You all know how finicky I am about safety, but until now a gradual implementation has always been the norm. This hurts a lot of people in a lot of ways.

The DRG for sure didnt know, and Im fairly certain the GRA didnt either. Now thats been great international cooperation guys...

nobody knew what the new guildline would be. The severity of the problem meant that a unanimus decision was made to make the new guildlines active. Otherwise we would all of carried on doing events for 3 months knowing that the arenas arent up to standard and hopeing anaccident dosnt happen. Which it has done many a time in the past.

no
no conflict


(Message edited by jamesb on January 21, 2007)

Re Ed: Let us know what you decide upon - a waste indeed if this would break you.

Re James C: Quite aside from the subject if you were to have all the feather spinners migrate over to your competitions would you be willing to consider running a cadet competition alongside future events to help surpress the posibility of total annihilation? :) This is quite a testimony to the best arena in the UK!

Re Jamie: It would make sense I suppose but the issue arises of regulating and enforcing limits on the power of such spinners of course. Worth some discussion I say!

The insurance is certainly bound to be a fiddely issue. Had such events as what happened at the last UK Champs come to light to an insurer, fat chance theyd cover the event for anything like as much as organisers are paying today. Best safe than sorry of course.

Ewan - Of course if the cadet robots didnt want to fight the normal spinners we could put a compertition on for just them.

Ewan - You built a cadet class robot.

Well plenty of spare time this year.

not really tony, im planning on having feather evets every 3 months following woodlands, in addition to my heavy stuff, so i can keep you as busy as you like. well bring the arena up to you aswell if we can arrange things to get an audience etc.

please remember, there are at least 2 arenas running feather spinners in 2007, so it will be fine. dont loose heart.

I will be announceing dates for event very soon tony. No need to pack the spinners away as they can still run.