Proposals from the RFL

The RFL (The US counterpart to the FRA) have made a proposal to solve the various anomalies between weight classes in different countries..
From the UK point of view the main points are middleweights going from 50Kg to 55Kg and featherweights going from 12Kg to 15Kg.
In the intrests of a free & open discussion, the text of the proposal is below...

As were seeing, there are more people coming from different countries
- Brazil and the UK espeically, but also Korea and Germany.

I dont think theres a person in robot combat who doesnt see this as
a real sport. Of course its a fun hobby, but its also a sport -
just like pick-up baseball vs. MLB, it can be both.

As such, and as commisioner of the RFL, Id like to work with the FRA
(UK, Netherlands, and Germany), Korea, and Brazil to bring all events
together in same/same weight classes.

This will be a bitter pill to swallow, but in a year, no one will
remember the shift. In most cases, its a negligable change. In
some, its... bigger. I think the biggest resistance will be CHANGE!
The UK doesnt want to consider the Euro replacing the Pound, the US
cant think of kilometers replacing miles, etc. Lets work together
to institute a MINOR change now, to save years of aggravation as the
sport moves forward. Our kids will thank us. Most robots last a 1-3
years tops anyway, so as new robots get built, theyd repalce the old
ones.

In all cases but two, the change is always within 1 pound or 1 Kg, and
its an increase.

Proposal to change weight classes to bring weights into intergers for
both Metric and US. This would mean some classes would change for
both countries, but wed all have even-numbered weights. In boxing,
the weights are often odd numbers (e.g., 121 lbs), so not ending in
zero is not such a big deal). Well leave the insects alone.

In all other cases, robots are still valid in the new weights, so
theres no need to ADD classes, were merely upping the limit. I do
NOT want to add five new classes - just slightly modify the existant
classes in all countries, so everyone is on the same scale, and there
are never arguments. As 5 of 6 classes get to add weight, I hope this
will be an easily accepted change.

Propsed classes and how theyd affect you/your country.

US/Australia/Brazil-

340 lbs becomes unified SuperHeavyWeight 341.0 lbs (155.0 Kg)
220 lbs becomes unified HeavyWeight @ 220.0 lbs (100.0 Kg)
120 lbs becomes unified MiddleWeight @ 121.0 lbs (55.0 Kg)
60 lbs becomes unified LightWeight @ 66.0 lbs (30.0 Kg)
30 lbs becomes unified FeatherWeight @ 33.0 lbs (15.0 Kg)
12 lbs becomes unified HobbyWeight @ 11.0 lbs (5.0 Kg)

UK/Germany/Netherlands -
6 Kg Raptor class becomes unified HobbyWeight 5kg class
12Kg FeatherWeight class becomes unified FeatherWeight 15Kg class
50Kg MiddleWeight class becomes unified MiddleWeight 55Kg class
100Kg Heavyweight class becomes unified HeavyWeight 100Kg class
200Kg SuperHeavyWeight class becomes unified SuperHeavyWeight 155Kg class

Korea-
30 Kg class becomes unified LightWeight 30 Kg class

I suspect that the biggest argument will be over hobbyweight losing a pound.

Id really like the RFL and FRA to work together on this. Its change
for BOTH leagues, so its not like Im trying to get the FRA to toe
the line with the RFL. In the long run, we can lead the world in
showing cooperation for a common goal.


-David E. Calkins
Commisioner, Robot Fighting League
President, Robotics Society of America / ROBOlympics

I dont really feel any need for feathers to go from 12kg to 15kg - it may be worth looking back at the possibility of 30lb though. I think this is the general consensus from what Ive read on the RFL and Aussie forums. Anyway, let the debate roll on.

Anyway I better be off, Ive got enough troubles making my bot 12kg :)

In the most cases its not a bad change. only the feathers. In 12 kg we already build monsters. With 3 kg Extra I myself am capable to put heavyweight sized FP setups in feathers.

or else, build steel armoured bricks. if you know there are already full hardox armoured feathers -BonX for example, with a 2 Kw drive.

No, 12 kg is a challenge to build a feather, 13.6 kg is already nuts, but 15 kg.... Imagine a Scorpion junior using a Perm 080 for weaponmotor. Nor fun nor cheap to compete in the 15 kg class.

Whilst I can see the point of whole numbers I think youll meet less builder resistance if you raised your U.S. hobbyweight to our Raptor weight and we simply adopted 30lbs or 13.6 kg for our European feathers.

13,6 kg for a feather i could go along with. 15 kg is way too much.

And i doubt the germans want to slim down there raptors even further down by 1 kg.

I agree with Woody and Leo 13.6kg for feathers I could go along with 15kg is too much. Kishar my nephews feather has 4.5hp powering its disk and his feather is 11.8kg but it has next to no armour going to 13.6kg would give it a little more protection but at 15kg no thanks.

Yes, a 25% weight increase for featherweights could be lethal!

I see a pattern.

By urging the 15 kg. The 13.6kg weight is more acceptable for the European builders.

I dont think I have to make drawings....

nope, but i never made 13.6kg an issue anyway.

and an even bigger case of what is starting to happen now. Bigger/thicker hardox blocks, and bigger/heavier discs-Whats the point?

If they are all united at 12kg, whats the difference?

My input = 13.6kg.

Would sure make me finish my feather a whole lot sooner :)

how much does a lem130 and 36v x 2 packs of nicads weigh?

9kg
leaves 6kg for chassis, drive and disk.

but at least you can have a 10mm hardox pusher to fight it, but i pity the new people coming into the class, with polycarb and maybe wood robots.

15kg is not a good idea!
dont like 13.6kg either.
how about 10kg? or 8.714kg?
at the end of the day ill build to whatever weight there is, if its 15kg then i can go that bit further

If such an effort is made to put up the weight limit then equally as much effort should be put into getting the cadet class up and running as soon as so that the new builders have something to compete in if (once?) the weight limit rises without them living in fear of getting trashed.

Incidentally, if the open feather limit went up, would the cadet class have to go up too?

Just my moneys worth
Jamie

P.S. Im not having a go at the cadet-class initiators here (XFM I believe?) although re-reading my post, it does sound like that. I was just using the name cadet class as a reference. No offence meant guys :)

Yeah as James and a few others of you say, you can fit all these nasty weapons and so on into 15kg, people with the money and so on will just build all these cool robots, and they will be very impressive and great, would love to see them, but also as james said - what about the new people.

At 12kg there is a sort of balance between super weapons and good armoured robots at the moment. To rasie it to 15kg - the powerful robots are going to take over and leave no room for new comers.

But what about the people who have worked sooo hard to get their robots to 12kg. Using Ti and all sorts to get the weight right down to 12kg, spent money on lighter items. Some would say, more weight, means use cheaper heavier stuff like SLA batteries - but we all know, with the current roboteers, that will not be the case, as James said above, 36v Nicads - bang in the robot = one cool deadly robot. Im sure Little Spinner will add another Mag LOL. So its a hard one.

Deep down i would like it to stay at 12kg.
Maybe stretch to 13.6kg, but prefer 12kg,
but 15kg is a no no.

Mr Stu

Well thats not much of a discussion.

Everyone agrees 15 kg is too much
(Virtually) Everyone wants to keep the weight limit on 12 kg
and 13.6 kg is an option if it needs to be.

In other words, lets keep things as they are in Europe.

I also think that the weight limit should remain at 12kg. If we allow an increase then it would be much harder for a less experienced teams (including my own) to build machines to cope with the new even more powerful ones.

Will}

I think the discussion has lost the point ......
The RFL (The US counterpart to the FRA) have made a proposal to solve the various anomalies between weight classes in different countries

So .... I dont want to change .. isnt going to help solve the above problem.

Try working towards a solution.

(Message edited by woody on July 20, 2006)

Figure out what the purpose of each class is, and adjust the rules (not just the weight) accordingly. Maybe we need different limits, or more or fewer classes.
From an organisers point of view I want big heavy machines. As one to carry them about 25 kg (or so) is maximum. As builder/designer I dont care and build to the best of my abilities within set rules in the class I like best.

I revised the raptor weight to be 13.2 pounds, 6 kilos on the US side.

Im happy to modify the feathers to be 13.6kg and 30 pounds.

The goal isnt change for the sake of change, but to bring roboteers around the world onto a single, unified ruleset. Oddly, in both the FRA and RFL, the big arguments are over featehrs and hobbies, not LW-SHW...

Im not sure how the FRA works in terms of changing its rulesets, but I want to work toegtehr on this for everyones sake in teh future. It really WILL help everyone if we unify our systems. My proposal means we all change a little, so its not an attempt to bully - well all have to comprimise a bit.

I really hope that we can work togther to unify things. There will always be people who resist change, but I hope that theyll realize that this is a good tune-up for the betterment of the sports world-wide proliferation.

For me there is little evidence to prove that it is a betterment. So far, adding weight only makes robots more destructive, or less destructable.

So can you explain to me why upping the weightlimit is going to improve the sport? Not an attack, just want to know how you see this.

US/Australia/Brazil-

340 lbs becomes unified SuperHeavyWeight 341.0 lbs (155.0 Kg)
220 lbs becomes unified HeavyWeight @ 220.0 lbs (100.0 Kg)
120 lbs becomes unified MiddleWeight @ 121.0 lbs (55.0 Kg)
60 lbs becomes unified LightWeight @ 66.0 lbs (30.0 Kg)
30 lbs becomes unified HobbyWeight @ 33.0 lbs (15.0 Kg)
12 lbs becomes unified FeatherWeight @ 13.2 lbs (6.0 Kg)

Korea-
30 Kg class becomes unified LightWeight 30 Kg class

UK/Germany/Netherlands -
200Kg SuperHeavyWeight class becomes unified SuperHeavyWeight 155Kg class
100Kg Heavyweight class becomes unified HeavyWeight 100Kg class
50Kg MiddleWeight class becomes unified MiddleWeight 55Kg class
12Kg FeatherWeight class becomes unified FeatherWeight 15Kg class
6 Kg Raptor class becomes unified FeatherWeight 6kg class

Ummmmmmm .....I think you need to revise again.

Youve interchanged Hobbies and Feathers.

Leo ......etc .... Perhaps a read of the RFL thread will help?

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=THERFL&msg=3527.1http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/...RFL&msg=3527.1

Enter as Guest ....Click skip advert

(Message edited by woody on July 20, 2006)

(Message edited by woody on July 20, 2006)

Ive read the thread (i also read the RFL forum regularly), and no, it didnt.

I dont mind standardizing, but I really dont see how this is going to improve the robots or the sport. I dont mind it if a american feather enters a dutch competition weighing 1.6 kilo more than us, Ill flip it anyway. :) But 15 kg, thats too much.

Were it really would count for me, the heavies, there is no difference.

So like I stated in the thread before: 13,6 kg for a feather i could go along with.

Thats a standard isnt it?

I dont mind it if a american feather enters a dutch competition weighing 1.6 kilo more than us
Well .......You might not ....but the rules do not allow it.
Hence one of the reasons for this discussion:).

btw David, the reason we dont discuss LW-SHW, is because we dont have them, or at least not many.

David Calkins has shown a willingnes to move his proposals for feather and raptor weight robots to 13.6kg and 6kg respectively. Its not very tidy, but there does seem to be an emerging concensus around these figures.

There isnt an argument about lightweight and middleweight and superheavyweight robots on this forum because almost no-one builds them over here. Almost everyone in the UK builds either heavyweight or featherweight robots - with raptors as an additional class in mainland Europe.

I would guess that for the few that build lightweights the argument would be the same as that in the above discussion - in favour of minimising the change and hence adopting 27.3kg as the standard.

This would leave the weight increase at 10% or less for all classes in Europe with no class (I believe) facing a weight decrease. That sounds like a reasonable compromise to achieve a world standard.

The FRA would have to discuss the proposed change at a meeting of the governing body and decide whether to support it. If it did, it would follow past practice by consulting with sister organisations in mainland Europe and, if there was agreement, announce a date for the changeover. There is no particular reason for choosing any date, but I suggest that it might be for the UK Championships in August 2007. There are lots of alternative dates, but there is some history in choosing the anniversary of the Robot Wars competition for a weight change. It is also when there is a probability of US robots coming to the UK.

I hope that there will be a world weight standard for fighting robots.

Jeremy

Heres the latest based on input from you guys, the Aussies, and the Americans. As noted, the changes to the original proposal are in the feather and hobby/raptor classes.

US/Australia/Brazil-

340 lbs becomes unified SuperHeavyWeight 341.0 lbs (155.0 Kg)
220 lbs becomes unified HeavyWeight @ 220.0 lbs (100.0 Kg)
120 lbs becomes unified MiddleWeight @ 121.0 lbs (55.0 Kg)
60 lbs becomes unified LightWeight @ 66.0 lbs (30.0 Kg)
30 lbs becomes unified FeatherWeight @ 30.0 lbs (13.6 Kg)
12 lbs becomes unified HobbyWeight @ 13.2 lbs (6.0 Kg)

UK/Germany/Netherlands/Sweden -
200Kg SuperHeavyWeight class becomes unified SuperHeavyWeight @ 155Kg
100Kg Heavyweight class becomes unified HeavyWeight @ 100Kg
50Kg MiddleWeight class becomes unified MiddleWeight @ 55Kg
12Kg FeatherWeight class becomes unified FeatherWeight @ 13.6Kg
6 Kg Raptor class becomes unified HobbyWeight @ 6kg

Korea-
30 Kg class becomes unified LightWeight @ 30 Kg

Leo - while you might not mind weight differences, everyone else would. The goal is that everyone in robot combat uses the same rules, same weight classes, etc. It improves understanding and increases the likelihood of croos-continent competitions.

As for why the given classes change - its so that they are all even intergers in both Kg and Lbs. Makes it easy to read and understand. If I had my way, the US would go metric and so would all weight classes - but thats just not gonig to happen, so I view this as teh best comprimise on weights, and a good start to standardizing the sport world-wide.

In that case standardizing clear rulings on removable links is way more importants than a weight issue. As an event organiser you can always wave the weight limit of 1 or 2 guests arrive from the US, but when it comes to safety measures, we can not be so lenient.

15kg, cya guys. its bad enough as it is hence the 6kg class was opened. theres hardly any new roboteers and seeing much more destructive and armoured bots will only put more people off. consider featherweights dead if things dont change for the better, we need something other than a weight increase.

However i like the idea of a unified 10kg featherweights class. brings it back a little step however it would be a problem for the current feathers.

Reading back I used removable links as an example but it might appear i meant that as the only obstacle. I in fact mean all safety measures, not in the least the protoype ruling we have here in europe. This allows us to use custom built rams and buffer tanks and what not.

Leo-For freindly melees and white board fights i wouldnt mind if that did happen and i was fighting an overweight bot (as often happens over here) BUT when it comes to a proper competition, rules are rules and not to be broken!
Its not fair that someone gets an extra HUGE 1.5kg ontop of our 12kg! If weights were not united, then its upto the builder to build a machine to the rules of that country! Thats how it should always be

im suddenly liking 15kg :) cant think why :)

Leo makes a great point, removable links vs keyswitches, hydraulic and pneumatic pressures, and battery voltage. I understand the reasons for wanting to standardize weight, but our 12kg robots with only 1000psi gas must be as capable as 15kg robots with 3000psi (i know its not that simple, but you see where im going) Likewise, a 12kg robot with only 36v allowed will have similar power to weight ratio as the same machine with 48v, ish....

If we are to consider making our machines heavies, maybe we should also look at allowing higher pressures/voltages? Im not trying to upset the discussion, as a world unified as always a great thing, but our rules are very different at the moment.

Building a featherweight to the proposed 15kg class and RFL rules allows me 5000psi hydraulics and 48v to power the pump..... does anyone in this country want me to actually build that?

i want to see you do it!

Not nessassary fight with it though (and aslong as its not all held in by the trusty gaffer tape :) )

But as James states, other rules need to be looked at asap too. 13.6kg i think is a little high still, but it can be done.

James and others make a great point. It would be fantastic if the FRA and the RFL can agree to one rule set.

I would love to bring my bot to the UK and Europe. Unfortunately, in Australia use the US rules for featherweights which would preclude me from your comp.

I cut my robot teeth reading UK websites and received much advice from the members of this and other forums. I hope one day to meet you in the arena.

I simply could not afford to build a new bot just for one trip to the UK.

Most of the UK rules are based around safety and legal aspects.

For example, the 1000psi limit is based on HSE recommendations and is also a practical limit of CO2.

The hydraulic limit is safety based.

Having unified weight classes would be the first step to having truely international competition.

If our pneumatic and hydraulic rules are based on safe industry standards, what on earth are the Americans based on? :crazy:

As much as I am in favour of truely international competition, Am I the only person to remmeber the time Heavys were 170lbs and feathers were 25lbs?

What would be the point of changing everything we have now to unify, if the RFL are only going to change their weight limit in about 2-3 years time?

Guys,
You are totally missing the point! This discusion is about trying to arrive at an agreement on WEIGHT.. Forget the finer points of the build rules..Thats for another debate!
So come on, drop this c**p and concentrate on the job in hand.
Prof. Calkins has worked bloody hard to get this far. I think his last post with the feathers ammended to 13.6Kg and the Raptors back to 6kg is a perfectly acceptable solution.
If you guys still want to still build 12Kg feathers...Go ahead, and if we decide to accept these new standards at least youll know your machine will be in weight!
What we need are answers to problems, not constant nit-picking over things that can be delt with once we get the main points sorted.

Geoff Smith
Chairman, Fighting Robot Association

Well, Im perfectly happy with the proposed ammendments.