Flipper components

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could tell me where to purchase these items for my flipper?

1000 psi relief valve
low pressure vent
BSP blank
low pressure piping
T connector
low pressure relief valve 10 bar
bottle connector

Also I was wondering what sizes of the above I would need?

Thanks Alex (Psycho Fling)

Im pretty sure http://www.technobots.co.ukhttp://www.technobots.co.uk will have these components in their pneumatic section, if not then try http://www.robotmarketplace.com/store.htmlhttp://www.robotmarketplace.com/store.html

Youve got to buy most stuff from other places AJ, Im not too knowledgeable about pneumatic stuff though, so best wait until the gas-guys post.

By bottle connector I presume you mean the bit that you connect your co2 bottle onto to go into your regulator? If so I€™ve got one of those kicking around. Also I€™ve got an 11bar low pressure relief. £15 for the two. Pictures on profile this evening.

Pics uploaded, quality€™s not great but better then nothing.

Note; The bottle connector is a 1/8th BSP female connector but there€™s a 1/8 to 1/4 male/male connector in place, so you can screw it directly into your regulator, meaning no need for copper pipes or hydraulic hose etc. Also the Pressure relief valve has a 1/4bsp male fitting.

Technobots is a good choice for you to purchase your required bits.......as is this Forum and Ebay.

Also I was wondering what sizes of the above I would need?

Thats a question that is often asked in one form or another......the answer is ....what do you want from your flipper ,lift ,flip or orbit?
What resources and expertise do you have?

I think that a browse thru the following sites might aid the understanding of the problem and help answer your question.

http://www.teamkiss.com/builder.htmhttp://www.teamkiss.com/builder.htm
http://www.teamdavinci.com/understanding_pneumatics.htmhttp://www.teamdavinci.com/understanding_pneumatics.htm
http://www.technobots.co.uk/Technical/Guidance/A%20Guide%20to%20the%20Design%20and%20Use%20of%20L ow%20Pressure%20Pneumatics%20On%20Fighting%20Robot s.htmhttp://www.technobots.co.uk/Technica...e%20Design%20a nd%20Use%20of%20Low%20Pressure%20Pneumatics%20On%2 0Fighting%20Robots.htm
http://www.teamonslaught.fsnet.co.uk/co2_info.htmhttp://www.teamonslaught.fsnet.co.uk/co2_info.htm

Regards Woody

(Message edited by woody on February 25, 2006)

i would say not to buy them at all.
there is a growing trend of people jumping straight in with co2 for their first flipper.

I recommend a low pressure system based on a compresor, if for no other reason than to gain experience before investing in a co2 robot. Its also a hell of a lot safer. A very good flipper can be made this way, for a fraction of the cost, and a lot less weight than a co2 system.

Pneumatic and Hydraulic fittings from Hydraquip..check your local industrial estate..
the Crawley branch where I used to get my parts were incredibly helpful, and when I fitted out KC3 I spent a morning in their workbay, with them cutting and making up hyrdralic hoses to fit..

I found Pirtek just as helpful, though they itemised every washer used and billed me.. hyrdaquip were a little more accomodating.

Also worth a look is Graham leacock who had a heap of old pnematic stuff, its where a fair few robots got their rams and valves.. http://www.engsurplus.btinternet.co.uk/http://www.engsurplus.btinternet.co.uk/

the hardest thing to find is the CO2 bottle connector.. Technobots are definately the best bet for this item.

Thanks For all your replys I got a lot to think about.

I was wondering about the system James suggested what components would this require?

Thanks again Alex

If anyone could write up a simple guide to making compressor and stored gass powered flippers with picture and web link references in word or similar, I volunteer to stick it online. Not much I know, but I dont know much on this subject :)

Would be great for a load of people, me included, that know the basics of pneumatics but dont know too much about implementing it in practice.

Anyone up for it?

you would need the following:-
a car tyre compressor - £5 from any good car supplies shop like motormania.

a buffertank - eg. a coke bottle, or a coil of pneumatic pipe. Whipper used pipe to great effect.

a valve - available lots of places, including me.

a ram, same as above.
pressure switches.... not really needed if you do it right.

the system can be done for as little as £30.
e-mail me if you need more info, and ill let you know what i have in stock.

Ill have a think about Ewans suggestion of writing a guide unless someone has already done one.

e-mail me (profile) Im a CNC machinist and make hyrdrulic fittings in 316 stainless and high nickel alloys.

cheers
kenny

eh? when did that happen?

Ok on my profile is a basic diagram that I used in Turbine 3 (and now used by Mini Hurts)

The diagram shows a standard compressor setup working with a 5/2 valve to fire and retract the ram. However a 3/2 valve could be used in place for single action.

I WOULD strongly suggest the use of a pressure switch. Wire up your compressor so when you plug in your removable link your compressor activates. Then set your pressure switch to a desirable pressure (such as 10bar) the pressure is usually settable via a small screw on the top of the pressure switch. When the pressure has built up in your buffer tank and pipe work the pressure switch will turn off your compressor automatically via a relay (the Pressure switch does not have the strength to do this on its own, so the use of a relay will stop the switch burning out). The point in this is so you don€™t have to be constantly thinking about topping up your pressure during a battle, it can all be done automatically.

For a buffer tank I would suggest a Blow torch butane tank, as these bottles have been easily tried and tested up to 18bar by myself and weight very little. For the adaptor for the buffer you can strip down the plastic blowtorch handle and inside you will find a machined piece of aluminium. Un-screw the blow torch end and you should have a 1/8th BSP hole, witch you can put standard fittings into (available from http://www.technobots.co.ukwww.technobots.co.uk)
As for the butane in the tank, before you take the handle apart just use it as a standard blowtorch and let the gas burn off. (Its the safest and most environmentally friendly method When you are SURE all the gas has gone put a drill bit through the one way valve in the top of the butane tank. This is so that you can easily pass gas into and out of the butane bottle for use as a buffer in your robot. Screw the machined aluminium handle back on with a 1/8th BSPx6mm(or whatever size pipe your using) T stud. The 2 pipes coming from the T stud can now go, A) to your compressor and B) to your valve.

Then as you probably know the pipe or pipes from your valve can go to your ram. (A Q.E.V from http://www.technobots.co.ukwww.technobots.co.uk will speed up the extension time of your ram allot)

I would suggest an electronise 2way relay to fire your valve. Or if you can€™t afford that I glued a micro switch to a servo for a short while. Witch worked just as well, but you will get a small delay between your T/X and the actual firing of your valve.

I hope this helps someone. If you have any more questions regarding compressor powered pneumatics send me an e-mail.

Sorry I can€™t supply an accurate wiring diagram of the relays and switch etc, it€™s been a long time since I built Turbine 3:)

David,
Before you get carried away with your buffer tank idea please read below...Especialy 8.3, 8.4 & 8.6.. Are you sure what you are planning can comply?

Geoff.

Extract from FRA build rules (29/11/05)
8.1.
Pneumatic systems should use one of the following gases: Carbon Dioxide [CO2] , Air, Argon [Ar] or Nitrogen [N2]. Other inert gases may be used but consult with event organisers for acceptability first. (The only gas routinely available from organizers of U.K. events for refilling purposes is CO2).
8.2.
The maximum pressure at any point within a pneumatics system shall not exceed 1000 psi (68 bar).
8.3.
The compressed gas shall be stored in a commercially manufactured gas cylinder of appropriate design, specification and certification. Except where the maximum storage pressure is less than 50 psi (3.4 bar). N.B. Some events may have further restrictions on bottle sizes/weights used please contact the event organiser for clarification
8.4.
The gas cylinder must incorporate a burst disc or pressure relief valve with a relieving pressure of 190 bar. Exemptions from this requirement are where the manufacturer or manufacturers agent fills the gas cylinder and applies an integrity seal / wrapping, or the storage pressure is less than 50 psi (3.4 bar). Event organisers may wish to check integrity seals prior to their use.
8.5.
Gas cylinders charged to pressures of greater than 50 psi must incorporate an isolation valve that can be operated from outside of the robot.
8.6.
Gas cylinders that do not incorporate a valve (for example: the gas is released as soon as the cylinder is screwed into it€™s mating pneumatic connection) such as found on disposable welding bottles and €˜fizzy drinks€™ machines must have an additional remote isolation valve accessible from outside the robot.

Geoff. These rules apply only to the storage bottles, not the buffertanks.

The buffertanks will not be charged outside the arena.
Also, the PRD mandatory in any pneumatic system will make sure the buffertanks, valves and rams are not pressurised above their rated working pressure.

Otherwise the system is not allowed.

8.1 = The bottle WAS storing butane, But the Butane would be removed to store the compressed air from the compressor.

8.2= impossible to get a compressor strong enough to go over 1000psi in a feather.

8.3= Myself and DTK used similar bottles no prob on 10bar (think DTK ran 16bar infact)

8.4= Its 10bar = 140psi. However I agree YES a 11bar PRV should be used. Also i dont believe a buffer tank has ever been required to have a Burst disc, Reseviours only i believe.

8.5= Dump valve, goes without saying.

8.6= please explain the need of an isolation valve for a LP buffer tank.

from my point of view, having made only about 10 of these, the cheapest way to make a nice flipper is.....

£5 compressor. these get to anywhere between 100psi and 150psi before the pressure causes heat backup and the compressor cannot go any further with the pressure. it is in effect self regulating, crude, but it works.

to save more cost, trial and error at home with small diameter holes will limit pressure further, aim for 50psi to avoid the need for prds, although event organizers have been known to allow compressors without prds

pipe buffertank, a long coil of the pipe going to the ram acts as a buffertank, and is light, cheap and very effecive, as proven by whipper.

valve, a single acting valve is fine, easily picked up for £10, and will flow enough gas to make a nice flipper.

a cheap plastic ram from the £1 shop is a large diameter, long stroke solution, but having tested them dont go higher than 50psi. you have a ram alex, so no worries.

finally, bungee return, dont need an exhuaust valve if you have a leaky ram (like to £1 shop one) or drill a 1mm hole in the ram.

cheap, easy, and SAFE!!!

e-mail me for info, i have most of this in stock, and beware overly expensive advise. A lot of money is wasted in this sport following other people, when there are better/cheaper/simpler/safer ways of doing things.

oeps, double

(Message edited by maddox on February 26, 2006)

and if i posted half the grief i get from people on msn for giving advice, this thread would be twice the size. Dont know why i bother half the time.

Just a reminder, if you dont have 10 years engineering experience, 5 years practical fighting robot experience, 9 GCSEs, & alevels, an HNC in health and safety, with NEBOSH certification, a degree in mechanical engineering, nearly 200 satified customers with over 50 machines built, a 100% safety record, £1,000,000 personal liability insurance against accidents, bad service, and advice, (and a lot more common sense than many of the people I know,) then please sit back down and dont snap at me on msn then log off so i cant reply.

end of rant.

Mario,
Forgive me if I have got this totaly wrong, as you know gas is not my strong point, but as I understand the situation after a chat I had with Mike Lambert as FRA Pneumatics rep. his view is that buffer tanks or any other part of the system opperating above 3.4 bar may in theory need to tested and certified.
(see below)

8.7.
All pneumatic components used with pressures greater than 50 psi (3.4 bar) must be rated / tested to at least the maximum pressure available in that part of the system.
You may be required to provide documentation / certification to support this.

(for example, could such doumentation / certification be provided for Davids empty butane bottle?)

Copy and paste ...

As both butane and propane boil at relatively low temperatures, they exist in the gaseous state unless they are contained under pressure or are refrigerated. The boiling point of commercial butane at normal atmosphericpressure is about 30°F and that of commercial propane is about €”45°F. Both are therefore necessarily supplied under pressure in containers filled to about82€”90 per cent of their capacities. The storage pressure for liquid butane is about 25 Ib per square inch and that for liquid propane about 100

his view is that buffer tanks or any other part of the system opperating above 3.4 bar may in theory need to tested and certified.

Does this mean they dont need to in the rules but theroeticaly there should be a rule about it?

I wouldnt have thought they would allow butane bottles to sell without a certification of some form?

I have seen loads of robots over the years using butane canisters fo buffers, and i dont think they were told to remove them? Not sure but i dont think so.

QUOTE-JB(and a lot more common sense than many of the people I know,)
Ouch JB, burning out a compressor every time its used? Wouldnt it be more sensible to invest a few pounds in a pressure switch to save buying a new compresser every fight?

**** If I was starting to build a new robot, I would be greatfull with help and guidlines on doing so, NOT Greatfull for people trying to push another idea to me, especially when it comes down to people putting personal coments on to pursuade me to to take their ideas because they either want recognition or money.

Im sure everybody can put down experiences, and some mch more outstanding ones! but thats not what advice is about, its to help others.
I would advise you away from CO2 to start with for obviouse safety reasons, but a setup like dave mentioned, they can be just as good fun.

Good Luck
Grant-Ploughbot

Sorry,just read my post again, didnt mean it to sound asif it was purely aimed at anyone, but thats the general feeling you get when asking for advice here!

his view is that buffer tanks or any other part of the system opperating above 3.4 bar may in theory need to tested and certified.

Does this mean they dont need to in the rules but theroeticaly there should be a rule about it?


All pneumatic components used with pressures greater than 50 psi (3.4 bar) MUST BE rated / tested to at least the maximum pressure available in that part of the system.
You may be required to provide documentation / certification to support this.

How is MUST BE an ambiguity?

Arent they already tested though? one would have thought that being a highly explosive canister it wld have an even greater factor of safety than CO2 bottles? thus proving them safe?

I may wrong but its logical!

Geoff, As I mention in my previous posting. Everything working above 3.4 bar has to be pressure tested and certified. At least according to the prototype PID rules.

But buffertanks dont need seperate burstdisks, PRDs, or any other isolation device.

Grant, when you change anything to a pressure vessel, explosion hazard or not, it has to be retested. Even if the change is simply the orignal valve exchanged another one.

Ah ok then. thanks mario.

Robots I€™ve seen with butane (or similar such as air horn) type bottles:

G3
Turbine3
DTK
Smash n grab

How many have been asked to prove the safety of there buffer tanks...none. but
just to keep you happy...

I€™ve tested a butane bottle up to 18bar, and for the 10 bar setup that was
required by the persons original question I believe a butane tank would be fine.
considering there€™s a 180% safety margin! and I believe only a 120% safety margin
is required.

James baker- were is the logic in putting a hole in your buffer tank or whatever
to use as a PRV?...I spent £12 on a compressor for my first feather weight...4
times...because they were of such bad quality they kept breaking. so a £5
compressor...you get what you pay for! And leaving it to burn itself out is a
good idea? how?

Geoffrey- Forgive me if I have got this totaly wrong, as you know gas is not my
strong point, but as I understand the situation after a chat I had with Mike
Lambert as FRA Pneumatics rep. his view is that buffer tanks or any other part
of the system opperating above 3.4 bar may in theory need to tested and
certified.

I believe Mikes team mates Feather DTK uses a tank VERY similar to the butane
bottles. So I very much doubt he would have a personal problem with these bottles. (sorry
if Im wrong Mike)

I personally think, only from what Ive seen, that pressure up to as much as 100psi on compressor systems should be allowed. The whole set-up looks really quite safe, obviously it depends whose hands its in... Can someone be very specific on the most prominent dangers of low pressure compressor systems?

Also, how does 12v the motor couple up to the compressor mechanism on most cheap units guys? Would it be easily feasable to change the motor?

Yes its easy enough to change the motor depedant on the compressore you buy. Infact, someone in college has just bought the compressor mechanism on its own for a project to put their own motos in. I wouldnt risk it without the pressure switch on though.

I think some of you are missing the point here.
Mario is right when he says that buffertanks dont need burst disks prds etc.
But the thing Im trying to get across here is as the rules stand an event organiser could ask you to provide written certification or CE type approval for ANY part of your system that opperates above 3.4 bar, and if you could not provide it he would be quite entitled to ban that machine.
Worse still, god forbid there was an accident resulting in someone getting hurt, you can bet your life the H&SE would want to see the paperwork for every inch of that system, Or at least show that EVERY part has the relevent CE type approval for the purpose it was being used for at the time.

Just something to think about.

ok i get what your saying now, but is this clear to people, i mean if this was announced at an event would everybody have the documents on hand? or is this (undeliberatly)looked over?

Dave, I have to agree with Geoff here, he is aiming is comments for a beginner (no offence Alex). As a result Geoff is quite right in quoting rules and saying that people should air on the side of caution. When we started playing with pneumatics we didnt have much of a clue, it was only with the help of roboteers such as Mike, Alan G etc that we learned. Many of us have been doing this for years and have a reasonable level of experience, people just starting with pneumatics should use caution and only use components at the pressure they are rated to(or sufficiently tested to pressure, by competent persons).

Dave im not having a go at you, just in case you think I am.

Alex - Using a compressor system may be a good place to start as it will give you practical skills needed to deal with more powerful systems (CO2). Having said that I agree with Dave our experience is that the compressors do tend to fall apart after a while, but Cutlet used them more successfully than us.

I think Ian once told me his was around £20 from Halfords, Not sure tho. But I carnt see anyone getting a reliable compressor for £5. Anyhow...

Ed. As Ive said. I have tested a butane tank to 18bar, If I could justify spending the money i would get one proffeshionaly tested at 10bar to prove my point. As you know I ran one at 10bar for a year no probs in one of our old feathers. Along with a LP PRV (as needed acording to the rules) theres no way the tank can rupture.

As for trying to help people, I spent about half an hour wrighting how to make a compressor setup thats reliable.

Ok then my point is that anyone starting to mess with pneumatics should go by the rules or as Geoff said in his last post be prepared to disappointed if they turn up to an event with a previously untried setup.

people should air on the side of caution.

Im assuming(hoping) that was a deliberate pun?

Dave, no offence, but you answered your own question by saying I spent £12 on a compressor for my first feather weight...4
times...because they were of such bad quality they kept breaking.

a lot of people have managed it Dave, by breaking 4 maybe its not the product but the user that is lacking. Alot of the people who have bought cheap compressors will now be saying to themselves, i ran without pressure switches without problems. Stop trying to prove me wrong Dave, we can both be right you know.... and if you want to keep moaning about cheap solutions, using cheap plastic rams and cheap valves, cheap buffers and putting holes in things, I suggest you do a google search for rexs robot challenge (lots of cheap bits like plastic rams) and cutlet, who used the 1mm hole I mention. Not arguing with you again Dave because you are a kid (16? 17?) who regurgatates info he has heard from others (often oher kids), and that is the extent of your knowledge as far as i can see. Ive tried to be nice and polite with you, but the who lets get Grant cooper in on this aswell is just annoying and childish. As you can see Im not replying to Grant, because at least you made some kind of point Dave.

Does it show Im annoyed? sorry all, not making a very good contribution to this thread right now am I? my advice is documented above and I stand by it, dispite what the teeny boppers say. :)

Ok, us kids, me being 18, building robots for many year, and learned from others and experience in engineering know that using a compressor in a system without a pressue switch is not a good idea for atleast 3 reasons.
1. The compressor will burn out.
2. this results in very high costs every battle
3. will not do the batteries any good what so ever (as everbody knows a stalled motor Absolubtly drinks power).

And its not the age that matters, its the experience, and as i beleive (actually i know) dave has had hands on experience with these types of systems for the last 4 years in MANY different robots.

Lets all just grow up and stop with the bickering. It gets us no where and what image do you think it will portray to people that want to get involved in the sport? Remember that anyone can see these threads.

Admin, this may be a thread that could do with some cleaning. Just a thought.