New featherweight builders

OK, heres a few thoughts that I have been having regarding the current level of development in the featherweight class. As you all know the speed of development of feathers in the last 2 years has been nothing short of astounding, we have 2 or 3 HP spinners that carry more energy than some former heavyweights and pushers that can put the better part of 2KW of drive on the deck added to fact that some of these machines carry so much titanium or hardox armour they are virtually indestructible.
Whilst this development at the top level is to be encouraged, as it can only lead to better machines and spectacular fights, were does that leave anyone who has a real desire to become involved in feathers for the first time? If I were looking to build my first feather with limited knowledge and budget and I saw the likes of Little Spinner / Scorpion Evilution doing their thing or Pillow Torque or KR3 push a machine into the arena sidewall so hard that it either flies straight out of the arena or is crushed so badly that it will not run again without major surgery, my first thought would be to hell with that, I cant compete with those machines so why waste my time
Before you all start, yes I have been guilty of developing one or two nasty machines and on the odd occasion I have taken advantage of a less well built robot, but that is precisely the reason why I am proposing the following...

An entry level featherweight class.

These are not hard and fast rules, just my thoughts as to what may work for new builders, I would welcome all constructive comments. If a concessus can be reached I would be happy to write up a formal set of build rules and propose them to the event organisers and subject to their approval, to the FRA for ratification.

1: Current FRA safety rules to apply I.E. must have a removable link, power light, failsafes, use 40Mhz FM , etc.
2: No stored kinetic energy (spinning) weapons.
3: Any pneumatic system to be low pressure only.
4: No titanium or other exotic materials.
5: Hardox will be permitted.
6: No rare earth magnet motors (Astroflight, Magmotors, Thingap motors, etc.)
7: Type or make of speed controllers will not be restricted.
8: Batteries to be SLA, Ni-Cd or Ni-Mh. Li-poly will not be permitted.
9: Should there be a financial limit placed on construction of the robot? (Say £250 excluding radio equipment)
10: These machines to fight within their own class, but will be permitted to fight in the top level if the builder feels brave enough! But no machines from the top level will be allowed to fight in this entry class.

Please feel free to discuss.

Geoff.

Wouldnt a simple 2 tier system work ..with new Bots being intially placed in a suitable Division by their peers?

Or perhaps a ranking system that only allows fights within x number of places of your rating ..... together with your suggestion of being able to throw the down the Gauntlet to a much higher rated bot.

Woody

I have build a feather weight (currently not finished due to money restraints)and to be honest i am considering not finishing it.
Partly because i still need to buy decent batteries and a charger and partly because if i do finish it i dont want to take it to an event and have i trashed in 1 fight aginst robots i have no chance of competing against. I am not prepared to forgo a years work for 3 minutes of fighting outside of a proper uk championship with clear goals and prize money at the end of it.

From my point of view Geoffs proposal is very welcoming as it would allow me to have meaningful fights on a more level playing field.

Im all for building better, meaner featherwieghts. Unforunatly at this stage i have neather the finances, knowledge or tools to build something from Ti with 2kw of drive or a powerful spinner.

Just my thoughts. :)

our competitions are getting that way too what with magmotors, dewalts, magnet wheels, titanium and the like...

so now we just have a class of feathers that follow the same rules as normal except EVERY external panel has to be MDF basically. so everyones on the same playing field. if you want that mag spinner youd better be prepared to bring a whole lot of spare frames :)

http://www.robowars.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=600&start=0http://www.robowars.org/forum/viewto...?t=600&start=0

Why ban Titanium... weight?
If there is no spinning weapons just use ali instead it is much lighter. Or polycarbonate.

I think wooden extenal panels is great... cheap, easy to cut, medium weight, etc.

As someone who is sitting out at present due to the costs of being competitive I feel that the issue is unfortunately down to money. I enjoy competing againest cheaply built bots that have power due to design ingenuity with cheap parts because I can aspire to the same level of creativity. However the more expensive motors etc are beyond the reach of many of us and it is frustrating to be beaten by big money parts that you just cant see any way of affording for your machine.

I would suggest that instead of creating a beginners class, we look to a superclass. Any robot using parts that arent widely available below a set price should be moved up to this class. Any of us less affluent competitors, could of course enter fights in this class if we felt suicidal enough ;)

It would be very hard to put a cost limit, as what do you include in it? What happens if theyre given something or sponsored? By limiting materials/components will bring the costs down anyway.

Maybe like Tim said a superclass would be better. I have Alpha for competitions to deal with the likes of Little Spinner, but im the first to admit its boring to watch 95% of the time. I would like to build a flipper for fun fights and concentrate on it looking good rather than worring about bolting Hardox on. But id be constantly watching the board to see who else enters.

Tricky subject, but something needs to be sorted to encourage new people.

I think the issue of cost is fairly simple , it doesnt matter how you got it, the cost would be judged on the open market value that it would cost anyone else to buy it. Sponsorship would then be a means of gaining entry to a higher class with a competitive machine as opposed to beating up smaller less costly machines.

This is not in any way intended as a criticism of those building with expensive parts however they obtain them. It is merely a thought based on taking a bit of time out to mull over why the sport was losing its edge, fun and challenge for me personally. Featherweights were fun for me when the only bar was my own ability, we can all learn new skills. Sadly we cant all afford more costly parts and the amount of sponsorship for a fairly low profile sport is limited. To be honest Id rather spend my time and efforts in the workshop with a few cheap bits, than chasing sponsors and then explaining why there was no pot of gold in it for them.

I like the idea of creating a higher class as opposed to a lower/lesser class as it gives us all a target and a dream to aim for. Its a small point maybe, but it seems far better to create a gold standard we can all aspire too, than an also rans class. We can all dream of that mythical cheap machine that is competitive in the higher class ;)

yay, i can still enter BonX

Im currently in a position where my robot would stand no chance in the current Featherweight class, but it also wouldnt fit into the ideas for the lower class suggested above (eg. Im way over that budget and will be using some Titanium).

Im just going to suggest a spinner and non-spinner class. Those that can afford Hardox and Titanium or feel they want to go into the spinners league they can. Those that do not have the funds, armour or courage to take on the spinners could go into the non-spinners allowed league. But then that wouldnt stop anyone having DeWalt powered rammers and Full Pressure flippers. So maybe the way to go is to have a limit to each weapon type...

Low Pressure Flippers - Lower League
High Pressure Flippers - Higher League
Rammers (Under ???hp) - Lower League
Rammers (Over ???hp) - Higher League
Spinners (Over ???rpm) - Higher League
Spinners (Under ???rpm) - Lower League

You get the picture. :)

AJ, I can build a low pressure setup that is as powerfull or even more powerfull than a normal FP setup. So that difference is not really usable.
Same for spinners.

I can build a very useless 50000 rpm toothpick spinner or a 500 rpm meltybrain(if Bugs kan make the electronics)

Thanks for the input so far, there have been some very good points raised that I think are well worthy of consideration. Maybe at this point Roaming Robots and XFM would like to add their views as they are the ones that may have to find time in their shows for another class of feathers!

Now the question comes to mind What about me. I have been to numerous events in england last summer 4-5 i believe but I never won a fight and quite often the robot simply didnt work. I never once fought a spinner (for fear that the robot would be destroyed).

So would i still be able to enter the beginners class with my lp pneumatic flipper bot or would i have to enter the high class where my 10mm poly with 12mm ply base would be destroyed?

AJ, I can build a low pressure setup that is as powerfull or even more powerfull than a normal FP setup. So that difference is not really usable.

Sorry, I should have thought about that. But still, Im for a second Featherweight class.

If its a yes/no thing I think there should be a second class. I dont really know what the exact constraints should be though, but theyve got to be easy to judge on the spot really.

Im a 100% behind a second class of feathers, its a great suggestion.

We do need to discuss exactly what makes particular robots become the higher class.

I personally dont think that cost should be a consideration, its not very practical to check this at an event.
I agree on a blanket ban on spinners in the entry class.
I agree on a ban on the more powerful motors.
I think armour should by either aluminium or wood
I think pneumatics should be the cheap compressors only, used with a reservoir. (like some of the early flipper featherweights)

I also think that the entry class fights should be judged by control, style agression etc not damage

Id have to say yes to a two tier system.

Ive always wanted a lower performance class to actually see if there is room for more elaborate entertainment machines that wouldnt really stand a chance otherwise (Napalm, Robopig (I still say that could have righted on the spring!) and Twn Trwn, etc.)

1: Current FRA safety rules to apply I.E. must have a removable link, power light, failsafes, use 40Mhz FM , etc. Obviously
2: No stored kinetic energy (spinning) weapons.
Specify a disc specificly designed to use intertial energy. I wouldnt mind the odd pussycat style blade. Maybe an RPM limit too.
3: Any pneumatic system to be low pressure only. Theres room for cylinder volume here should you want it.
4: No titanium or other exotic materials.
5: Hardox will be permitted. For these 2 Id mention non-usage for shell/ frame structure only. I wouldnt blame a wedge for a ti blade on front or anyone using it for a moving non-drive weapon.
6: No rare earth magnet motors (Astroflight, Magmotors, Thingap motors, etc.) Should this include Dewalts?? If we ban too high some weapons may not have enough power. maybe slip the word drive in here somewhere too...
7: Type or make of speed controllers will not be restricted. Why would you want to???
8: Batteries to be SLA, Ni-Cd or Ni-Mh. Li-poly will not be permitted. Damn right
9: Should there be a financial limit placed on construction of the robot? (Say £250 excluding radio equipment) No, I think the rules are strict enough. Besides its too hard to enforce.
10: These machines to fight within their own class, but will be permitted to fight in the top level if the builder feels brave enough! But no machines from the top level will be allowed to fight in this entry class. If any suicidal machines want to enter with scorpion, thats their business but Im certainately not cleaning the arena after them.

Also I agree with Rob, we shouldnt place the emphasis on damage. Thats why its gotten to the point where we need a sub class in the first place!

I think damage is still neccisary for the lower class otherwise you will lose the robot fighting part of it. I dont think cost should be limited, there are too many loop holes that people could get round.

I think basic limits should be made. Something similar to rexs rules but allowing certain drill/gold motors etc. but again you can get some very powerfull drills and who would test them at an event to see if they are beyond the limit?

Other things to be considered would be armour thinckness, materials allowed and weapon types.

I think an outright ban on spinners is unfortunatly nessisary. I do like fighting some spinners as it gets your guts going which is what i fight the machine for in the first place but i think it would just be too hard to make limits for them.

Armour thickness could also be quite hard to measure, reason being I classify my armour on DB5 as 2mm Titanium but behind that there is 8mm Ally. This is mainly part of the chassis, but also acts as armour. Any ideas on how this situation would be judged if an armour thickness was enfored.

I do think some types of metals should be outlawed for a lower class

Agree no FP pneumatics should be allowed, also agree on the rare earth magnet motors should be banned in the lower class.

so what if you buy a set of motors from somewhere without specs being known to you, should you test them in some way to figure out what class they fall in?

Hmmm glad this as been mentioned actually... I have considered buliding my own feather but because of lack of experience and being up against more experienced ones, well i dont stand a chance. Its something that needs to be thought about because im sure im not the only one thats being put off. Money is also an issue being a student and only getting weekend pay i wouldnt be able to afford to keep repairing a bot, again im sure im not the only one with that problem. For someone who hasnt seen these bots in action and are TOTAL beginners with no one with any experience of building then i can see that they might be up against an experienced robot and get completely destroyed at that stage i would probably give up as well. A cost limit... hmmm i dont know if that would be a wise idea, how are you going to know how much someone as spent on it? I dont know if the quialty of robot will deteriate or not with people focusing on other parts of it. Ok i maybe speaking rubbish. Just from a potential beginner i think the point raised about new bots getting completely battered is correct i dont think i dare build one and go against the likes of kr3 and pillow torque!

I know what its like in those shoes, Bex. Believe me. Though, when I finish my own and can make my way up Nottingham way, you can pilot mine if you want.

Now theres an offer i cant refuse :)

How can you miss an object out of an entire sentence?

Though, when I finish my own robot and can make my way up Nottingham way, you can pilot mine if you want.

LOL :) well im sure it will be sooner than i finish my non-existant one

I think the Rexs Challenge rules would provide a good starting platform for a lower power/cost/destruction featherweight category- although a few mods to the rules may be beneficial.

Something like:

DRIVE MOTORS - must be ex-car windscreen wiper motors. You can modify the motors however you want. Include drills (possibly DeWalts, Im not sure on that matter) and gold motors as forms of drive - since watching two slow WW bots can become a bit boring.
PNEUMATICS - for flip-ups, self-righting mechanisms and other weapons are encouraged. All systems must use a maximum of 50psi air pressure. Increase the pressure limit to 150 p.s.i to allow for proper flips rather than the tip-over style flips that are usually the result of 50 p.s.i flippers.
Possibly include spinners but either limit the revs or the motor choice.
Then include the power light, removeable link rules etc.

That may provide a base for working on but thats only my opinion.

Feel free to deliberate :)

Regards,
Lenny

I really wouldn€™t bother with spinners as there are far too many variables to consider with regards to design. You could put a limit of 1kg on the weight but that means nothing as you could have that 1kg spinning at a diameter of 1m. A limit on kinetic energy wouldn€™t do much either as a spinner could have a lot of kinetic energy but it is about how that energy is delivered. 2 big cutters which slam all the energy into the opponent in 1 big hit are going to cause more damage than a disc with 60 teeth that slowly grind away the opponents armour. I could go on but I won€™t. I think if such a class were to be created then spinners wouldn€™t be able to take part.

It should concentrate more on the engineering side of it, ie does it look good, does it do the job. If you want spinning weapons then go for angle grinding discs or saw blades, back to the series 1 and 2 weapons. Still interesting, makes sparks and noise, just doesn€™t cause a lot of damage.

Just my 2 cents

Go for something that can be built with easy to get (= low price or sponsoring) materials from the modelcar or DIY shop. No spinners but promote other moving (and show-)weapons if possible. Maybe a minimum part of the total weight for sacrificial props. Something that doesn´t need a lot of arena space (play at schools) but can still be seen by an audience at fairs.
I would go for 3 classes: Raptors(*) for entrance level and fun, the current feathers to step up a bit and have fun, heavies as top show monsters to have the ultimate fun.

*) Raptors are a ready 6 kg class, populair in Germany and Scandinavia.

(Message edited by mjm on October 14, 2005)

I think it would be too much of a jump from 6kg to 12kg.

Yes you could use the same motors etc but remember this is meant to be a beginers class that is meant to make it as easy as possible to move to the featherweights. What easier way than just entering the robot you already have in another class? With a few upgrades of course.

As somebody who is just putting a few plans together for a possible featherweight, I would have to say that I do not personally have a very stong opinion about an entry level class as part of the risk of taking part in a battle is the damage that might occure. I am willing to except that.

I can understand, however, that completely new people to the sport (I have been a fan and building an antweight for a few years now) would very much appreciate a reduced entry level class. I was at the Saturday show and the 3:00 Sunday show at the Roaming Robots event in Portmouth last week end and from what most people in the audiance were saying around me, they were impressed by the power of Pillow Torque and the other featherweights.

The current feather weights are definitly crowd pleasers, but for would-be-roboteer pleasers perhaps an entry level class that actually makes them think I can do that would be good for getting them involved.

(Message edited by bobblebot2 on October 14, 2005)

they were impressed by the power of Pillow Torque

Dont say that, Geoffs head will just get bigger. :proud:

Mr Stu

Dont worry Stu, I keep a pin handy for just that scenario. :) But its nice to have the feed back.

Reading through the above posts it would appear that perhaps we should ask what we are trying to achieve with a new class?

Are we trying to set up a class where the robots are easier and cheaper to build or are we looking for a class with a different type of gentler competition to keep the new entrants running once they are at the events?

I would have thought that those who have the will to build and compete understand and indeed are attracted by the current style of competition. The help they require is with the technical and cost issues. A limited amount of non-costly fun and entertaining damage could be what is needed. For myself and the Scouts, the challange of on-event repairs/bodges to damage caused by robots such as Kitty, Scorpion and Vortex was a big part of the joy of the sport. In that respect bots such as Pillow Torque and the flippers just arent entertaining opponents as no damage means a long boring wait until your next fight;)

Where this leads us Im not quite sure, but maybe we shouldnt go down the no-spinners road but limit the technology used to run them for instance.

A totally off the cuff spur of the moment thought is that lower tech cheaper armour is heavier, but can provide good protection with a weight penalty as well as being very easy to work with. How about an extra weight allowance for woodies within the current class? From personal experince an extra few kilos would allow fun bots that would allow wood bots with a second skin for visual impact damage with little seriuous risk to internal components even againest the likes of Vortex. If wood is to be used I would exclude MDF,as I gave up using it with youngsters as it is quite revolting to work with power tools.

regards

Tim Jones

Theres an awful lot more to worry about than vortex these days :)

And Kitty for that matter. LOL!!!

Mr Stu

We need new roboteers so an entry level class for feathers is a very good idea. Lets not spend time debating a rule set for it or which weapons to allow - just give it the standard FRA rules.
What would distinguish the entry level machines is that they would only have to fight other entry level machines. So a new roboteer can be guaranteed that s/he wont come up against one of the existing high power feathers.
The key to a successful entry level class is not rules, it is the opportunity to compete. This comes down to the event organisers. Lets ask if they are willing to provide one entry level new blood feather fight as part of the line-up at big public events like the Roaming Robots Winter Tour or the Extreme Fighting Machines event. The fight would begin with an announcement to the crowd that what they are seeing is new roboteers starting out and an entry level machine would be put on display afterwards with someone to explain how it works and what it cost.
This approach might inspire some of the new builds and new roboteers we need to keep our sport alive and give it a chance to grow.

I agree with John here. How many times have I seen people wince when they find out the price of just one of Pillows astroflights.
Cost is (in my experience) the main thing people ask about but it is difficult to explain that it doesnt have to be like that when there is nothing around to show as an example. In fact I think (correct me if Im wrong) that one of Johns feathers has the drills themselves mounted (motors, gears, casing, except the handles). That really shows a beginner what can be done to start. It even got me thinking :wink:

So when a new roboteer enters the arena with another featherweight thats new... when do they stop fighting new roboteers and fight the existing high power ones? If you get me there im not very good at explaining

This was going to be announced at the upcoming Extreme Fighting Machines event at Halloween, however on the basis of this thread I thought it was worth mentioning here... well not here, actually http://www.extremefightingmachines.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=1935&post=53912#POST53912>here as its technically a commercial ad.

Ed - XFM
http://www.extremefightingmachines.comhttp://www.extremefightingmachines.com

Bex,
If I understand you correctly, A new roboteer could fight a top level machine at any time. (If he/she were feeling brave/suicidal!!) But that would be totally volentary. Providing his/her machine remains within the specifications of the entry class then he/she could stay & fight in the entry class indefinatly.
But the whole point would be to encourage roboteers to learn by experience and develop their robot to the point where they will be promoted to the top level.

Geoff.