Tool box

Afternoon all. Time for another of my ridiculously generic and open-ended questions.

This is another one of those things which has been discussed before, but to which I suspect the answer has changed over time.

As the long-suffering members of this forum know, Im at the about-to-build stage for a heavyweight (about being at least a couple of paycheques away). Im trying to strike a balance between not spending more money than I need, and being able to re-use bits (so not buying anything completely useless). Robot bits themselves I can budget for, but Im trying to get a feel of what I need in terms of tools.

What, in hindsight, do people find they need most urgently?

As a starting point, you can assume Ive done a little DIY. I have screwdrivers coming out of my ears, some files, hammers (including the sledge variety), clamps, pliers, a cheapish drill, an even cheaper jig saw and a funny mains powered dremel thing with a bendy nose attachment for delicate work (some chance). Oh, plus some electronics stuff (meters, soldering iron, that kind of jazz - if I need a scope Ill come to work).

Even with optimism, I realise this wont get me far. Im presuming Ill be going down the welding route (I know you can screw things together, but I guess you need a heck of a lot of pre-drilled lumps of metal to repair damage in a hurry, where a welder and a sledgehammer can fix quite a lot). Im also presuming Im not going to be buying titanium any time soon, so MIG will do. (Also Ive never welded anything, but theres an obvious remedy for that.)

So... I need a MIG welder (Im told one which really takes gas, which Ill accept). I guess a tap and die set would be handy? Will I need a band saw, or will a jig saw and a lot of patience do me?

I currently dont have a bench drill, and Im guessing thats fairly high on the priority list, yes? (Preferably one which lets me cut grooves? I cant see a plunge router working with metal.) Possibly also a (small) angle grinder?

As an aside, gears/sprockets. Is there any way to manufacture them without paying somewhere to laser cut them? Just should I need something odd. Im guessing the disc of metal and a while with a file approach is a bit hit and miss?

Finally, lathes. They seem to be popular - although B&Q only seem to hold the wooden variety. Whats the difference? Presumably I dont need something more than 1m long, but beyond that? How much will one help me?

Oh, and before anyone says it, I have goggles (the most important bit of safety equipment as I think Norm says, although I doubt he was using oxyacetaline at the time), gloves, mouth guard, fire extingisher - and MIGs seem to come with face shields. I also have a healthy sense of paranoia around power tools.

Im presuming B&Q (or similar) is going to make a few hundred quid out of me at some point, but Id prefer not to make it more than I need. Yes I know a good quality drill will serve me better, for example, but Ill wait for the cheap one to die first. On the other hand, I dont want to spend a week making something only for someone to say oh, you wanted a... which costs a tenner.

Anyone want to advise me which equipment to kill myself with?

--
Fluppet

Small bench drill - ESSENTIAL - £39.99 from B&Q would suffice to start
Angle Grinder - ESSENTIAL
Decent welder - ESSENTIAL
Tap and Die set - ESSENTIAL

Lathe not essential if you can get odd bits machined by a local engineering company.

Gears and sprockets from from Technobots, or HPC Gears.

If youre after a welder and want something decent, weve got one in the For Sale section Andrew Im sure we could do you a good deal on !

Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

Mr. G.

The bench drill will be useful, but Im guessing youll have trouble finding one that can do grooves. For that youll need a milling machine and theyre mucho wonga.

re: welder. MIG which actually takes gas (as opposed to flux cored) is a good plan, but it might be worth leaving yourself the option of gasless (good for thick metal and welding in a breeze/wind) by buying a good combination machine.

Lathes : Metal (Engineers) lathes are seriously pricy. Wood ones wont do the job - partly something to do with the stresses involved, partly to do with tolerances I reckon.

Saws : Im reliably informed that a jigsaw is a definite only if youve got nothing else option when metal working. Im planning on buying myself an abrasive chopsaw (no room for a bandsaw) then maybe upgrading to aforesaid bandsaw later.

Angle grinder - definitely. And seeing as you can pick up a Bosch 600W 115mm version for sub £30 (green rather than the pro blue but should last anyway) theres no excuse to get a crappy one - unless you want a 9 one. 115mm is a handy size as theyre cheap, have lots of accessories, and the accessories tend to be cheap too.

B&Q probably isnt your best option. For a look at lathes and milling machines try http://www.chronos.ltd.uk>Chronos

A lathe, altough handy, isnt at a high priority. stuff i can think of, that will almost certainly (some of which you have);

General Tools (screwdrivers, pliers. files etc)
Angle grinder (a must if welding)
MIG welder
Jigsaw
Hacksaw (with good blades, cutting through 6mm S-Steel with a blunt blade takes along time)
Good pistol drill (cheap ones tend to burn out quickly, we blew two up when making Merlin so just bought a cheap Bosch and had no probs.)
Hammers (of all sizes, bigger = better)
Basic electronic stuff (meters, irons etc)
Good set of spanners and allen keys
Good set of drill bits (cheap ones tend to blunt easily)
Set of taps
Big vice and work surface
Lots of gaffa (its even needed when building).
Lots of pencils (you will be amazed how many you loose!).
Bench Drill (saves trying to drill a straight hole by hand, you can cheap ones for about £35).

Theres alot ive forgotten.

In our experience it doesnt pay to buy cheap stuff, you will end up having to replace it at some point. You might save yourself £10, but the it could break the night before an event leaving you stumped! Some items that you wont use as much, you can get away with cheaper stuff.

Steel-nosed workmans shoes of good quality. They will protect some of the most vulnerable parts of your body.

Gloves. For welding, grinding and handling sharp parts.

Fire extinguisher.

It is not only the tools you have to think about:
Make sure your workplace is well ventilated and can be cleaned easily.
Make/acquire sturdy benches and cupboards for your stuff.
Dont forget to have enough power outlets so that you can reduce the amount of cables that you can trip over or accidently damage.
Keep a tidy workplace with all your tools within easy and visible reach.

By the way... your posting is not ridiculous. It is good common sense and may benefit others.

A general reflection on some of the stuff that has been said:

Lathes and Mills- stay away from the clarke stuff- or rather the generic chinese mills and lathes that have everyone stick stuck on them- theyre junk out of the box. If you have time and machining skill, you can turn them into a project and get quite a capable machine, but I dont think theyre really worth the effort if you want to get a tool ready to make robots.

If you do want a lathe and/or mill (Im going to go against the grain and say I find milling more useful than turning when it comes to making robots) then get yourself a proper, good, second hand one form somewhere like G and M (http://www.gandmtools.co.ukhttp://www.gandmtools.co.uk). Myford Super 7s are great great machines, and are so popular that youll have no problem getting spares or compatible accessories for them. A good Brideport style mill is also a boon. But as stated, these are serious workshop tools, and by no means necessary as you realise.

Welders- youre right in terms of welder and hammer being gods gift to high speed fixing. A very workshwhile investent. Ask the local pub for some CO2 bottles, dont use the feeble and vasty overpriced disposable bottles. The Pub bottles last infinatelly longer, and are about £1 for a re-fill.

Saws- theres a generic metal cutting bandsaw that is a great addition to a workshop- one of these combined with a welder and angle grinder means youll have a decent box section steel chassis put together in no time.

Drill press: definatelly. Get some decent sharp drills (Cobalts are great- slightly more expensive, but last longer, and more future proof should you start using Stainless and Ti and any of the newer substances like NanoFlex).

Not mentioned yet- a decent scribe, combination square set, Calipers and micrometer (http://www.chronos.ltd.ukwww.chronos.ltd.uk is the place to go for that kind of stuff) A good set of measuring and marking up tools are essential.

Tap and Die set- essential.

Decent work bench and good vice are essential too.

Its very true to say with tools that you get what you pay for. So buy slowly and when you need it, so you can get the best you can afford.

Ed

GAFFA TAPE

Thank you, all (not to stop the discussion if people have extra recommendations for me).

Ed - sorry, cant see a MIG on your site. More info? B&Q seem to cope with cheap ones at around 150 quid, up to about 220. Not that B&Q is necessarily my source, Im just next door to one so I went around to get an idea of prices.

Unpleasant news about milling machines and metal lathes. Neither strike me as advanced technology, at least if Im not talking about electronic drive. I was kind of hoping a milling machine could be emulated by the base movement leeway on a bench drill, and that a small metal lathe requires a lot less raw material than something for making table legs (unless Im doing something to a *really* big axle). Naive? Sigh. The Myford 7 looks a tad bigger than I was anticipating. :-)

Kev - can you advise me where to look for welding courses? (Ive read a book on it, but I guess that helps me only in a very limited manner).

And thanks for the support, Babeth. :-) Ill try to ask more specific questions when I dont think anyone else can use the answers!

Presumably lathes mainly come in useful on axles and the occasional ram. How much is it possible to work around not having one, and how essential is machine shop access otherwise?

Finally, anyone care to comment further on my DIY gears question? 99% of the time I can use off the shelf, but Im curious whether theres a way forward if I want to do anything weird. (No, Im not sure what yet).

This is a little bit prompted by Mike saying to me do you have a lathe? and, after the negative answer, okay, get a pre-made gearbox then. Although I have other needs for weird gears too.

Thanks again, all.

--
Fluppet

http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/discus/messages/89/1641.html?1078923140http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/disc...tml?1078923140

Oh *this* for sale section (as opposed to the Storm one). Me stoopid.

Thanks Christian!

--
Fluppet

Myford 7s are small by most standards :-)

Certainly there have been many robots made without ever seeing a machine tool. I would consider a mill and lathe to be a very worthwhile investment from the point of view of getting a workshop that you can use for everything. If the objective is to build a robot, then getting the precision bits made by someone else is your best bet. As for gears- its one of those difficult answers- the stiffer and more accuratelly the gear box is, the better the performance youll get. I would recommend getting a couple of gearbox plates machined up- it should be too expensive as its a fiarly simple operation on a mill. It really is worth doing it properly.

A pillar drill is definitely very useful. I bought one of the £40 ones from B&Q and was surprised by how sturdy it was (and that its still working over a year later). I cant use it now and Im finding it a struggle to work without it. They probably can be made to work as a milling machine but youd have to take it slowly as theyre not meant to handle radial (?) loads, and the cost of an XY table might be quite high compared to the cost of a dedicated milling machine.

If you dont have one then I would recommend getting a multitool such as a Leatherman. Some of the cheaper imitations are good, too. Theyre very convenient especially when you get to an event.

Eddy: thanks. Ill try to find somewhere and budget accordingly.

Jim: is a pillar drill different from a bench drill? (Spot the newbie.) Definitely about the taking it slowly, but the XY table was what I was thinking of as a pseudo-mill. Ill look into it.

I have a cheap multitool (possibly I should consider investing in one where the pliers dont slip over each other), plus some scary Swiss army knives, which are surprisingly useful between them. Ill have to peer closely at the pits in Debenham and try to get a feel for what equipment is in use at the time. I know theres a welding area at most events - I presume a real workshop is out of the question, so any drilling has to happen hand-held?

Cheers for the feedback,

--
Fluppet

As far as Im aware a bench drill, pillar drill and drill press are all the same thing, although a bench drill will be small enough to fit on a bench, while a pillar drill might be free standing. Mines a bench top model.

:-) Cheers. I know what I mean, I just dont know what its called.

(Mind you, if the garden centres invent grass hook because they cant work out what a sickle is, I can see myself not being the only blank face around B&Q.)

--
Fluppet
(Must go home from work)

One thing that I find absolutely essential is a cordless drill, mine is only 9.6v but it is a life-saver. If you can get a higher voltage then that will do the drilling better but the screwdriving worse, horses for courses really, just dont pay extra for a hammer action one for robot building, totally pointless.

Andrew,

Most modern further education colleges (at least those where they do GNVQs and stuff) will do practical courses like welding and plumbing and what have you. Whether theyll be short courses or full two year jobs (thatd be fun - maybe nexy year) I dont know.

My own course is an Introduction to welding 20 hours over 10 weeks course at a local agricultural college. If you have one of these local then it might be another good bet. Its given me the chance to use gas, stick, MIG and TIG welding, as well as brazing, and its got all the machine tools you could ever feel like shaking a stick (electrode?) at. I just wish I wasnt on my final week next week.

As to the size of lathes - Chronos (several links above) stock a small benchtop lathe with a distance between centres (workpiece length) of about 30cm - fine for pulleys and single wheel axles etc. I think its called the unimat and it would be significantly better than nothing. It also has a milling head that you can attach to increase the versatility.

Id love a Myford Super 7 but its (a) HUGE by my standards (I only have a small shed) and (b) HEAVY and (c) WAY too expensive for me - even for a bashed second hand jobby. Machine mart do brand new engineers lathes for about £600. Might be worth a look if you have the money to spend.

Oh and when you buy the welder - dont buy one of those shields that auto-darkens when you strike the arc UNLESS its a decent one (probably £100+ - they use ESAB at the college - about £150) - advice straight from the welding tutor. Youre risking your eyes otherwise. I use a hand held shield (permanently dark) for both arc and MIG and thats safer than a cheapo auto helmet.

-- Kev

Andrew, email me. Address on profile !

Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

buying cheap lathes isnt a good idea. The lathe might be £600, but you will still need to buy eveything else for it which can be expensive (a chuck for the clarke one is about £100).

We bought a 2nd lathe last spring, i think its was about £200, but we got everything we could ever need with it. Myfords, although popular, arent the best, and can be very expensive. Keep a look out in your local paper and Ad Mag for 2nd hand lathes/mills/welders.

Alan: Thank you. £200 I could stretch to (in a month or two) especially for the kind of thing Kev mentions; £600 is a bit more of a problem.

Kev - thank you, Ill do some investigating!

Joseph: thanks, Ill starting looking at them as more than a source of gearmotors. :-)

Ed: Have done!

Thanks all.

--
Fluppet

Lathe we got was donated to us. The company never used it and when I told them what it was for they were glad to get rid of it. Even delevered it the 50 miles for free using one of there vans. Only problem was it had been converted to single phase and the motor was too small. We put it back to 3-phase and changed the gearbox oil and its been fine since. Its a nice Colchester Student with metric & imp thread cutting gearbox built in.

Milling Machine cost us around £500 without any tooling but managed to get most for free. It was however a litte harder to get in the back of the garage.

Look around and be paient and eventually you will find a bargin.

€œbuying cheap lathes isnt a good idea€
IMO, it depends on the kind of work, for building robots, a chinese lathe will do the job, if you have the possibility of checking before buying, because the quality standards are very different, from decent to very poor or unusable.
Last year we bought a medium size chinese lathe (300*1100) for manufacturing custom made pneumatic cylinders, (because the spindle bore of our very accurate leinen- lathe was too small) and i was surprised about the accuracy of the basic machine, spindle nose tolerances are less then 0,003 mm, bed, supports, cross feed and headstock is also in decent quality (for our utilisation). Price approx. 1500 Euros. But at first I tossed away the original chuck and replaced it by a german Rhm- chuck (price half the whole machine), the quality of the original one was very poor. After a litle adjustment (tailstock, etc€¦.), the machine works very fine.
At home in my basement I have a Super 7 with screwcutting gearbox (bought used for 800 euros, including a lot of accessories from the medical department of the university of heidelberg). IMO the best small lathe for hobby using in the world, but the prices for new ones are ridiculous high. (7000 Euros for the new S7 plus on the continent). Last year in nottingham I visited the myford shop in beeston, afther the first visit, my wife tried to hide my credit card :).
My milling machine at home is a very simple chinese mill- drill, but sufficent for almost all kinds of work. For advanced works I have acces to several deckel toolmaker millers.

Regards
Helmut

http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/discus/messages/89/1743.htmlhttp://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/disc...s/89/1743.html

Hi, clarke Urmm... Clarke machinery i would stay away from. although clarke welders are fine, i have one myself. you will find that there isnt much to go wrong with welders all it is really is a transformer. I have never used a frem one, i tend to stay away from ferm.

hope this helps.
Danny

Ferm and Clarke are different brand names for the same kit - cheap to buy - and unfortunately it shows. My Clarke hydraulic bender is good though!

Other essentials - Decent cable stripper (prevents losing those extra strands when you use a penknike) Decent cable crimper - will safe a lot of headaches in the future.

Another robot essential - 2 bottles of thread locker (Loctite). One should be Nutloc - for fasteners you want to be able to get apart but dont want to shake loose. The other should be Studloc - serious stuff and the chemical equivalent to welding - forget ever removing a fastener coated with this! If you want to be sure either threadlocker adheres properly - get a big can of brake cleaner and wash the nuts and bolts in it first.

If you want to use pop-rivets, dont buy the B&Q cheapo - they are rubbish. Get a good one instead. I like the Lazy Tong type - in fact I want to build one into a robot!

Richard

You could try to get a job in an engineering shop, I have access to a CNC Mill and several Colchester Lathes.

Machining is only half the story, back home in the garage most of the assembly work is done with little more than a Bosch 240v drill, a Bosch 14.4v cordless drill, a Bosch angle grinder and a Bosch variable speed jig saw (I have cut 1/2 thick ali plate with this). You may spot a common theme here, this is because any other tools from other manufacturers have burnt out and the bosch stuff hasnt.

I cant offer any advice on whether the clark or other hobby mc tools are any good as I havent really used them. The machines we have at work are not necessarily more accurate, they are just more rigid and can take heavier cuts. Hence I can machine in minutes something that can take hours on a hobby machine. The only recommendation I can give is that if you buy a bench drill try to get one that will allow you to position drill accurately.

I might also point out that I work to a very tight budget and without access to the machine shop I would have no robot.

A big bottle of loctite 601 will get you out of all sorts of trouble. Just dont use it on bolts that you may want to remove later. Use nyloc nuts on the threads you do want to remove.

I use a clarke arc welder (circa £60) and can take up to 3mm rods, it is also still working.

A good bench and vice is a must and dont buy hacksaw blades from B&Q, I bought some and tried to cut a high tensile bolt and all the teeth had disappeared before I was half way through it.

A good supply of WD40, squirt some into a cap and dip drills and taps in it regularly, especially in aluminium, it is a brilliant lubricant and your drills will last forever (well nearly)

oh well, im new to the robot world, but i think theres a few items not mentioaned

CUTTING FLUID - this cheap stuff will make your drill bits last a hell of a lot longer, use it with your tap & die set as well

WELDING MAGNET - you know those little magnet thingys that hold your work well u weld. £5

IF YOU WERE TO BUY ONE ITEM, ONLY ONE ITEM GET THE BENCH DRILL, I USE MYNE EVERY DAY. I got a cheap one from B&Q 2 years ago £40 it cost me, it still works fine.

Lots of contradictory comments above like Clarke machinery i would stay away from. although clarke welders are fine, and....

Ferm and Clarke are different brand names for the same kit - cheap to buy - and unfortunately it shows. My Clarke hydraulic bender is good though!

Basically yes cheaper tools are usually rubbish ...sundries like hacksaw blades by Blackspur and the like are absolutely useless.

However some cheapo power tools can be ok.

I have a cheap Clarke bench drill ...have had it 18 months ..used it resonably often and its been ok ...cost £39.99...precision accuracy? No...but who cares for most amateur stuff

Professional engineers will say its crap and it prob is but I cant afford better.

Also proffesional weldors I have spoken to say that Sealey welders are not great (as with alot of brand names Sealy just put their name on products usually manufactured in the far east etc), but my Seally supermig has worked great for 3 years (bought 2nd hand) and never let me down.

So there is alot of snobbishness about tools....yes you get what you pay for ...but try some cheaper stuff ,,,its not all crap ..if it is you wont buy it again, and we all cant afford the best stuff.

I have some excellent quality tools that I use every day in my job and you can definately tell the difference over cheaper stuff I use.

It would be great to afford the best of everything but its not to be

My advise would be to try some cheap stuff....if its rubbish you wont use it again but you wont be too much out of pocket.

You may also be suprised though at how some cheap power tools may be ok for the job.

Trevor: and dont buy hacksaw blades from B&Q,...depends on the brand...B&Q also sell Eclipse,Sandvic etc blades both of which are good quality.

Tom

My advise would be to try some cheap stuff....if its rubbish you wont use it again but you wont be too much out of pocket.
I agree, price is not a good indicator of quality. I have a £15 Nu-tool cordless drill which has done surprisingly well - Ive drilled lots of 10mm holes through 3mm thick steel and cut a few 20mm holes out of the same with a holesaw.

Ive also got a Bosch 240v drill and angle grinder, a friend of mine who worked as a construction planner on the City of Manchester stadium recommended them and they are good tools. Ive used one of the £40 pillar drills for about 18 months now and its still going strong. Of course Ive only recently got a garage with an electricity supply - I built most of my current robot just with the cordless drill and a hacksaw.

I like Bosch stuff too. Got a mains drill, angle grinder, and jigsaw, B&D sander, SIP Welder, and assorted other generic tools, like Challenge cordless drill and circular saw combo, B&Q own brand (Performance Power - not Pro) bench pillar drill, router, mitre saw and cordless multi-tool. Never had one break on me yet. Ive heard a few horror stories about angle grinders tho, so I reckon its best to go branded on those - especially considering how cheap they are.

Incidentally, not sure how common knowledge this is, but Black and Decker is to DeWalt what Bosch Green is to Bosch Blue, and Maktec is to Makita, i.e. a budget/DIY label.

-- Kev

My favorite tool of the minute is an el cheapo Ferm sabre saw. It cost about £20 from screwfix but goes through half inch polyprop like a hot knife through butter.

Bosch is a good brand, i have quite a few power tools from bosch, unlike dewalt your not paying for the name, your paying for the same build quality as dewalt but half the price.

Screwfix, the most used supplier in our house if you dont have an account i sugest you get one.
http://www.screwfix.comwww.screwfix.com

Tom -- the blades I was talking about were eclipse, that is why I bought them.

On the suject of cheapo tools I bought a nu-tool cut-off saw for £35 from Makro, it is the best investment I have ever made. Carbide blade and cuts perfect mitres. I have lent it out to several mates and at least 2 staircases have been done in a fraction of the normal time, and done well. I have recently used it to cut the mitres on my new kitchen and it works as well as the day I bought it nearly 2 years ago.

I also bought a nu-tool angle grinder for a tenner and it burnt out in less than 5 minutes. In the box was a spare set of brushes, not the usual accessory you expect to find.

Another tip for trimming Polycarb or nylon is to use an electric plane. I can knock up some new armour panels for the mouse in less than 30 minutes(I cut them roughly to shape first with a jig saw)

The biggest difference I find with tools is power.

I have a el-cheepo 830watt 240v drill. I also have access to a 750watt black and decker drill. Dispite the wattage rateings the black and decker never seems to struggle but the el-cheepo does very much so.

As for Corded/Cordless drills in the expensive sector have a look out for:
Mikita.
Hitechi.
De Walt.

And one thing I cant live without: a 240v to 110v transformer. On all the building sites they have to use 110v (the law) so alot of tools you come accross will be 110v. Invest in a good transformer and your sorted. I got a 110v angle grinder (4.5) bosch for only 35euro compaired to 60 for the 240v.

Regards
Ian

Cheap tools are mostly fine unless they are what would normally be considered precision. The tools which need precision (lathe, mill etc) tend to be precise initially, but built so badly (to keep costs down) that youll wish you never set eyes upon them a year or two on.

I have Ferm/Clark Grinder/linisher, 150A MIG welder and bench saw which I rate very highly.

I did have Clark a pillar drill, but the spindle in the quill managed to twist and bend in the process - rendering it useless!

I would scour the friday-ad for second hand tools. This has yielded me a Miford super 7 lathe for next to nothing, an Eutectic TIG welder for £25 (chap thought it was broken cos the HF start kept giving him electric shocks!) and a Bridgeport mill with 3 axis power feeds & 3 axis DROs (more expensive, but lovely!).

I did buy a 24v cordless drill, new for £30 - and its better than my DeWalt!

On the plus side, most cheap tools will give up within the warranty period - so you can get another one for free!

Si