Likely No Flippers in Grand Final

Despite the fact that Most of the semi finalists were flippers, it now seems likely that there will be no flippers in the grand final, real shame about gravity but this means the grand final will be very intresting

Yer its funny how forums have been full of threads saying how its the year of the flippers
and look how many flippers are through
Amusing

I must take some of the stick for this, I was one of the main voices of the all flippers grand final think tank. But i still wouldnt rule out Atomic 2.

Or Firestorm, actually. I dont *think* theyll get through, but I wouldnt be all that surprised if they did. They might have learnt from Bigger Brother that once a wedge is upside down, dont flip it back, for example. :-)

(Can Storm 2 use its arm as a srimech? Is it fast enough? I gather Biohazard used to be able to, pre-skirt.)

--
Fluppet

Storm II does not self right with its arm :sad:

Ed
http://www.stormrobot.comhttp://www.stormrobot.com

Thanks Ed! Not that it matters all that much while youre invertable, but at least you could fix the upside-down wedge problem.

Speaking of which, I notice neither Storm nor Tornado have a wedge the other way up on the back (the traditional way of keeping your wedge when youre flipped). The wedge (sorry, FLAIL) is only sometimes Tornados weapon and I guess they want the rear wheels exposed when the front is raised off the ground anyway (which would compromise the second wedge), but I wonder whether it might not be useful for Storm2(/3).

Are the team so worried about rear attack? (Quick! Get them while theyre... oh, theyve gone.)

--
Fluppet

Ed already sorta fixed the upside down wedge problem; if Storm 2 is upside down, the spikes at the back can be used to get hold of a bot. The only way to get aorund the invertable drive problem (besides oogabooga driveswitches and double wheels), is using the back as a front, which Eds done.

(Peers at web site). Dang, couldve sworn Storm2 was a kind of /\ shape (slope both ends). Im imagining things.

Spikes should kind of help, but Id have thought an invertable wedge would be more effective. Mind you, Storms strategy is to self-flip by driving up the opponents wedge quickly, IIRC, so being upside down doesnt last long. Thought I remembered them inverted against Mute and the wedge (the wrong way up) was still the preferred attack device, but maybe they were just trying to get flipped back.

--
Fluppet

The rear panel of Storm II is made from 6mm Grade 5 Titanium, with two spikes holding people off that. The weak points at the back are the aerial and link door.

The link door adds another 6mm of Titanium over the rear armour panel and slides open and closed - its designed to take direct impacts if were cruising about in reverse. The aerial is firly attached enough that you can pick the robot up with it.

Storm II may not have a wedge on the back, its its still solid enough to do the business :)

Ed
http://www.stormrobot.comhttp://www.stormrobot.com

the double wedge thing? how would that compromise the rear wheel clearance thing?
if you picture it, you can still have the rear wheels exposed like tornado, but continue the slope to a wedge, it doesnt compromise it.

I think they havent done it as tornado can run upside down, but they prefer it not to. Extending the rear increases the chances of it getting turned over.

James:

Ill explain my logic, with the proviso that the disadvantages I can see may still be outweighed by the advantages.

The problem with having an inverted wedge at the back and combining that with the design aim of having the rear wheels on the ground when the front ones are raised is that it requires the wheels to be quite near the angle of the bottom of the inverted wedge.

A wedge needs to be able to deflect spinners and the like safely above the robot (sort of). Having the wheels near enough to the angle of the inverted wedge to allow for the raised front business to work would mean that they would be dangerously exposed at the top of the (right side up) wedge. Weapons would slide up the wedge right into the wheels. Also the wheels would serve to push the opposition back off the wedge again.

The less youre worried about having grip when the front of the robot is raised, the less exposed the wheels need to be and so the less this is a problem, but since the tail shape is a deliberate feature of Tornado its clearly something theyd like to preserve.

Ed: Oh, I didnt doubt its solidity, I was just curious (and mistaken) about the shape. Given how thick the armour is, does the frame actually do anything? :-)

Ive always felt that, although horsepower is very handy for ramming things and sticky wheels are nice, by far the most significant factor in who can push whom around is which robot gets underneath the other (see the final of the second World Championships). Wedges wedges everywhere. One reason I think the way to introduce the biggest shakeup in robot combat would be to introduce a non-planar arena.

--
Fluppet

Off road robot combat? Could be fun and would introduce a whole new set of challenges. Could even do it in a soil/mud/grass environment with deep puddles and water hazards etc. Completely new class of robot required for that one.

-- Kev

Er. That might be a bit enthusiastic (and I suspect roboteers will get tired of digging sand out of gearboxes quite quickly). I was just thinking of some ramps dotted around the arena - or more specifically, raised areas linked by ramps (think Marble Madness rather than Robot Wars pinball challenge). Nothing so steep that wheeled robots couldnt cope, and maybe not even anywhere which a robot could fall off, but something to stop the race to be lowest to the ground (or at least to make it harder). Spinners would have to be more careful as well.

Kind of scuppers much of the effort on many existing bots, though, and it makes arena construction a bit of a pain - so unless its a rarity as a special extra I dont think itd catch on. If the ramps were removable (which, along with making them able to take a careless spinner hit, makes arena construction even harder) it might be possible to do the occasional special format fight, though.

Some robots wouldnt cope - Storm2 would probably ground itself, and Typhoon2 probably couldnt negotiate a slope either, at least while spun up - but Id have thought Firestorm, Gravity, S3, THz, maybe Razer (with the fifth wheel), Tornado, etc. would handle it quite well. Stinger would excel. :-)

Another of my odd thoughts, anyway - although I think its been discussed before.

--
Fluppet

About this double wedge stuff.
Does anyone remember spawn of scutter from series 4, and the wedge they had?It mobved but didnt use anything mechanical to do so.

Yes, I remember that one! It was a simple hinged wedge, almost like a skirt.

Hang on.

Using the simple fact that their is 7 flippers (call Storm 2 a flipper as it has that lifter) at least 1 flipper will make it into the grand final.

That flipper will either be
Firestorm 5/Mute/Storm 2/Grim Reaper

Actually, Storm 2 may HAVE a lifter, but its really more a Rammer than a flipper. Its never been counted as a flipper on the RW forum.

Storm 2s lifter is a questionable item.

*changes wording of last post to say*

A robot with a lifting weapon will get though etc

I call Storm 2 an electric well engineered arm (although Gyrobot is more enginnered in my view).

Storm 2s principle weapon has always been the ramming though. If Hypnodisc installed a small rear lifter, wed still call it a spinner.

Its got one. You just have to end up carelessly sitting on its srimech. :-)

--
Fluppet

[I call Storm 2 an electric well engineered arm]

That got posted wrong, it seems like I said Storm 2 is an arm. DOH!

Storm 2 has a lifter, but it can flip. I suppose its what it was originaly deisgned for. SO Ed, is it a lifter or a flipper?

Straight from http://www.stormrobot.comhttp://www.stormrobot.com

- Electro-mechanical lifter mechanism jointly designed by the Storm and Terrorhurtz teams

So its a lifter.

theyve only got that lifter so they can compete in series 7 as weaponless robots are banned

Same reason tornado put a small chain on thier wedge weapon

You mean the rotating toothpick?

quoteYer its funny how forums have been full of threads saying how its the year of the flippers
and look how many flippers are through
Amusing/quote

quoteI must take some of the stick for this, I was one of the main voices of the all flippers grand final think tank. But i still wouldnt rule out Atomic 2./quote

I think I should take more stick than anyone else, as I was the chief pessimist about the dominance of flippers in the heats - but in this case Im glad to be eating my words over it. Some interesting stats:

1st war: 1 flipper (grand final)
2nd war: 3 flippers (semis) down to 1 (grand final)
3rd war: 3 flippers (4th round) down to 2 (6th round)
4th war: 5 flippers (4th round) down to 1 (6th round)
5th war: 5 flippers (4th round) down to 2 (6th round)
6th war: 4 flippers (4th round) down to 1 (6th round)
7th war: 11 flippers (4th round) down to 0 (6th round)

Quite ironic really, that the war that produces more flippers in the 4th round than any other, produces less flippers than any other in the 6th round.

And Storm 2 has a lifter, as robots dont get flung into the air by compressed gas and OOTA when its used. And the motion is different to a flipper (ie. upwards then forwards in a controlled motion rather than an accelerating thrust in a single arc). It resembles BioHazards arm, which is classed as a lifter.

Could come in useful though, should it meet a spinner. (as one cant self-right and the other one has difficulty, although that stick they put on above the disc will help greatly)

Actually, there were two flippers in the Final of S2; Panic Attack and Cassius.

Also, Steg-O-Saw-Us could be classed as a flipper, because of the rear lifting tail.

Panic Attack was a lifter (well, a pusher really as the forks werent used back then) and Steg was a pusher (in the same way Storm 2/Tornado are, even though they have lifting weapons)

The forks werent used back then? How did they flip Whirling Dervish without any lifting devices, then?

They got their forks inside it but were grasping at air inside, so they had to push forward fast to tip it over. Apart from that, the forks didnt do any lifting. (they spent most of their time retracted)

quoteI was just thinking of some ramps dotted around the arena - or more specifically, raised areas linked by ramps (think Marble Madness rather than Robot Wars pinball challenge). Nothing so steep that wheeled robots couldnt cope, and maybe not even anywhere which a robot could fall off, but something to stop the race to be lowest to the ground (or at least to make it harder). Spinners would have to be more careful as well./quote

While we do need something to stop the flood of low ground clearance wedges, a ramp would probably just encourage them, and wed get Battlebots-style tactics of push them onto the ramp and leave them there. On the other hand, make the risk of being grounded high enough and it might just change a few minds (but that would be risky in terms of fight times though).

quoteSome robots wouldnt cope - Storm2 would probably ground itself, and Typhoon2 probably couldnt negotiate a slope either, at least while spun up - but Id have thought Firestorm, Gravity, S3, THz, maybe Razer (with the fifth wheel), Tornado, etc. would handle it quite well. Stinger would excel. :-)/quote

Actually, the vast majority wouldnt cope - only King B, Hypnodisc, Pussycat, Stinger, S3, WBC, St. Agro and Tough as Nails would be able to handle it. 2-wheel robots with a wedge front and some ground holding at the back like Firestorm and Gravity might only be able to reverse up it. Thats why Razer were so successful - only robots with high ground holding could beat them, and those robots are extremely rare (and hardly ever fought them anyway).

What we really need is a minimum ground clearance rule, at least on the back and sides (to ensure that the flipper-building majority wont be put off). After all, fights would be a lot more exciting with robots jumping over each other a lot - Eval Knievel anyone?

Not that it matters now of course, as I doubt therell be a RW left to use them. (someone please tell me that RW is not dead)

If it has no ground clearance it wont move.

I think he means robots should be forced into having a reasonably high GC at the sides and rear. I dont think this is good, as it means robots like Gravity will easily dominate by simply getting under those high GCs and throwing them OOTA.

So, its time somebody invented an impenetrable skirt...

Frank: I know the likes of Gravity would get under everyone, but they already do - as their flipper is just about on the ground (like most flippers nowadays). The point is that in most flipper-on-flipper fights, the outcome is determined by who has the lowest ground clearance all round. If every robot had a high back and sides, it would make the fights a lot more interesting, as no-one would be invincible (as everyone could be flipped by everyone else) and would hopefully bring driver skill into it more.

Plus if they were forced to have a higher back and sides, they might all be able to move with some wheels off the ground - no more Razer-esque single attack fights where one robot goes up on the other and gets grounded (hence beaten) within 10 seconds.

Theres two ways of looking at it.

If the GCs were higher, youd need better driving in order to keep your weak spots away from the attacker.

If your GCs were lower, youd need better driving in order to exploit your opponants weaknesses.