Rule 6.3 The Link

I was reading about Typhoon II in the latest RW members mag and the way in which they located the link. Ive mused over full body spinners in the past but rules in 6.3 seem to make them all fall foul of this rule.
How can the link be removed from the centre of Typhoon II without endagering the person?(assuming that due to an internal problem the disk is still spinning).Surely impossible, I wouldnt do it!!
Also rule 6.3.2 says that the link must be fitted away from weaponry. Yeah right! Grab the link and lose your feet.
I have to do Risk Assessments all the time at work IMO link positions should be assessed in this way.
I suppose an RC switch as a dead mans switch in series with the link goes part way but its still not within the rules as I read them. Or am I wrong?

it does say somewhere, that if the posistioning of the link is effected due to the design (ie full body spinner) then contact mentorn. so i assume they have had some prior agreement. as far as im aware they use the same system in all the robots, and the middleweight has been around for a while now, so i would assume any concerns would of been raised then.

But thats a cop out. Its either safe or it isnt. Whats the point of the rule if its down to discretion.

so true rob.

i also deal with health and saftey at work,and your right rules are rules and companys often bend the rules to make things easier for them selfs

If Typhoon II spins out of control, the house robots need to pin it down first. In fact, that was what they were there for in the first place. However, the design of the entire Typhoon family is about the same, and should be possible to remove that flag safely. i mean, they have to do it themselves on a regular basis, so i assume they have taken that into account.

You have to remain out of the reach of your robots weapon when putting or pulling the removable link. Typhoon is not that big that an adult cannot reach out and take or place the flag. Besides, you are protected by the lower gate of the bullpen in the Mentorn arena.

Im not saying its impossible to remove the flag Im saying that it contravenes the rules in 6.3 and that I wouldnt like to lean over to grab the flag if the weapon was on and the drive was twitching about.

You also dont want to try and take the removable link out of any other robot thats still running and having its weapon active. Du-uh !
I know several other robots whose removable links are far more difficult to safely reach than Typhoons. Really.

Mine for instance. And im working on it to solve that.

Hi All
Something you all might want to think about!
Speaking from the point of view of one who has had the experience of removing the links in most of the competing robots in robot wars. The main issue for the Tech crew is, Can the link be removed safely when the robot is Live or upsidedown outside the arena?.
With full body spinners we can use a House robot to stop them and pin the against the arena wall before making them safe.
Most of the problems come from roboteers putting the link behind a cover or door that is screwed or locked. If that cover becomes damaged in some way how are we supposed to get to the link with the robot on its side? Even with easy access it is very difficult to pull the links on some robots.
The rules are there for ours and your safety, mentorn does not bend the rules, If the tech crew think it will be too dangerious to safely remove the link then that robot team will have to make modifications to their machine to make it safe
Please remember, when you build your robot think about where you will position the link. Then take a sledge hammer to it and perhaps cut a few pannels with an axe, then see if you can still remove the link without cutting you hand on the very small sharp edged access hole coverd with a bent piece of 5mm steel.
Keep it safe out there :-)

Guys I have a problem!

I have three removable links in my robot. They are:
1. Receiver
2. Drive
3. Weapon (flipper)

I know according to the procedure I turn on my tx then the rx but which link should i put in next? My flipper weapon link or my drive link?

Please advise

Regards
Ian Mc Donald

Kim,just out of curiosity, where is the link located on Panic Attack and is it behind a cover?

Hi leo
There is a 5x3 inch square hole in the rear of Panic Attack. It has no cover or door. The link is easily reached with the robot in any position. We have added a skirt on the rear now but that does not get in the way at all.

So Kim if typhoon gets flipped out the arena going at full speed and something breaks so it cant be stopped would u fancy going up to it and pulling the link out cus i sure as hell would not.

Chris
The reason why we are quite strick about the link position is that WE are the ones that have to remove them after the battle. We are not just being awkward.
Typhoon.
We had this discussion when series 7 was being filmed and came to the conclusion that it would be most unlikely that Typhoon would get flipped out of the arena.
We would also ask the team of any flipper that was about to fight typhoon not to do so, but if they were losing the battle then they were free to do as they pleased.
If the worst case happened an a full body spinner did go out of the arena and was spinning at full speed then it would be delt with as safe as possible makeing sure that nobody got hurt in the process.
One thing though ! if you shut off the transmitter then the fail safe should stop the weapon, making the robot safe!

Guys can anybody answer my question or does it matter?

Regards
Ian Mc Donald

I dont think it makes a lot of difference. If the link is in a sensible place then it wont matter if the weapon fires the moment you put that link in, and if you are turning it on in a proper activation pen then there wont be any danger if the drive runs the moment you put that link in.

When testing at home, ALWAYS do a first-time power-up with the robot on its cradle, on a solid surface (not a workbench). The cradle must be capable of keeping the wheels, tracks or legs off the ground, and must itself have no wheels so it wont accidentally go anywhere while there is a robot on it! That way, if the drive goes crazy the moment you power it up then you wont be in danger. Similarly, if the weapon fires when you power it up, then there is no danger of the machine falling off a bench.

Once it is powered up, check your failsafes. To do this, run the drive and turn off the tx. If the drive runs for more than a couple of seconds, then the failsafes are not working.

hey yall i thought i would venture into here and i found this little thread

Our link i will admit is placed in a difficult place but then there is no other easier place to put it on a FBS. Mentorn have always been happy that our robots conform to their rules and we have asked them on numourous occasions to check if something is allowed by the rules and we have always acted accordingly.

Personnally i wouldnt want to even attempt to get at the link if any of the typhoon family went beserk, even the 12kg cdt could take your foot off. we have had a few occasions where things havent gone to plan and the link in the top has proved invaluable.

I havent bothered to follow up on my thread since babeths rather unhelpful remarks but Im glad that Gary has commented.
The reason I brought the issue up was the flipping OOTA of Vader in S7 heats filming and unlucky subsequent failure of a weapon relay which kept the vertical flywheel full on even in failsafe. Not so disasterous in Vaders case as I think that a member of the technical team (Derek Foxwell?) pulled the link to stop the disk. If the OOTA robot had been a powerful out of control FBS then what?
Kim - We had this discussion when series 7 was being filmed and came to the conclusion that it would be most unlikely that Typhoon would get flipped out of the arena.
We would also ask the team of any flipper that was about to fight typhoon not to do so, but if they were losing the battle then they were free to do as they pleased.
Another rule change!!! FBS cant get flipped OOTA!! Damn I wish Id known that before building CHIP :)

Ian, I always thought that you should keep the activation of your weapon to the last in an activation sequence. First put in the other links and see if there are no mishaps, then activate your weapon (either by link, gas bottle or switch).

Rob, I only remarked what I heard from Mentorn crew members and from what I read on other discussions, if you found my remarks unhelpful you should have written so and I would have stood humbly rebuked.
Every robot is dangerous. Full body spinners are no exeption on this, nor are they the most dangerous in my point of view, since I regard every robot with suspicion. No system is foolproof. Having a spinner OOTA and out of control ? That is what fences and polycarbonate screens are for. If not, evacuate the audience and wait for the batteries to run out of power. These are basic and standard rules for any robotic event. By the way... the Dutch roboteers have always hated and ridiculed me for telling the audience over and over again to pay attention and keep away from the fences during a live fight on the Dutch events, I wish they would all have come to the Worthing event and seen what I saw there: if the audience had stood at the fence they would have been hit by Tornado accidentely going OOTA. Believe me, you dont want Tornado going beserk OOTA. Really not. I dont know if it has ever happened but it is one of my many nightmare scenarios.
EVERY robot is dangerous. And removable links should always always always be within easy reach of the hapless fellow who has to remove it in case of emergency.

Rob -
I never said that FBS cant get flipped OOTA just that it was very unlikely to happen to typhoon.
What rule change are you referring to ???????

Whys it unlikely to happen to typhoon they got some kind of alien devic what allows then to freeze time and move out the way of a flip...:)

Kim, Remember Qualifying. Typhoon got flipped over!!! If it can get flipped over then why can it not be pushed to the wall and flipped over!

I would not have expected someone of your expertise to have said that about one specific robot. We are all at risk. The only way you could be sure its less likely is if other teams were not allowed to flip it out in which case it should have been too dangerous for it to have run in the current arena in the first place.

Chris - flippertime, nice idea!

We are focusing on Typhoon here, but remember, Tantrum was a problem too, and hes only a featherweight!

Prior to robot wars 7 featherweights required no link and no failsafes as Killalot will squash them if they are naughty

I show up to RW7 with tantrum (12kg robot with spinning bar that encloses the whole robot diameter), and I need a different link to the 2 I have, I need to remove half of the teeth, I need an FS1 heavyweight failsafe in addition ti the failsafes I had, and in the end this all meant I missed my fight.

If it had gone mad, Killalot could have sat on it, I told them this, if it had gone OOTA it would failsafe the weapon when I switched off, if it was upsideown OOTA you couldnt pull any link anyway.

I think the rule is, if on the day they think bloomin eck, I dont like that! then its not legal, no matter what. It has to be this way and Im fine with it. This is true of FBS but will become more worrying for thether robots someday.

just my thoughts

Like i say when it suits..

chris i wish we did!

Mark
If typhoon was spinning then it is very unlikely that it would get flipped, this applies to most FBS with a very low ground clearance. If you watched any of typhoons fights then you already know that.Any robot trying to get under would simply be pushed aside.
The problem with any FBS is if they get flipped OOTA when they are not spinning. The landing could damage something in the robot and then we have a major problem.
Our biggest worry with typhoon was it smashing the polycarb barrier hence it could leave the arena while spinning.
I think 21 robots were flipped OOTA in series 7 with no problems. As the robots get more dangerious then i think mentorn should reconsider its arena design to allow them to battle safely.
James is right that if a robot looks like it might harm anyone trying to activate or deactivate they would be given a chance to rectify the problem. No fix then no enter. I must say that very few robots had to make changes in series 7.

Typhoon is not unique in being problematical. NO robot can have its safety link safely removed if it is spinning wildly, or madly flapping or running its weapon, whatever the design of machine. Ive seen Dantomkia jammed in a spin, and the only way to deal with it was to wait until the batteries had nearly died then pin it with another heavyweight.

For Robot Wars, the primary objective of the safety link would appear to be to guarantee safety during normal activation and deactivation. It has a secondary use during clear-up after a robot has been sent OOTA, dumped in the pit, wedged under the angle grinders or been severely damaged, which is to enable the tech crew to guarantee that an immobile robot is permanently and securely immobile, and allow them to quickly, efficiently and safely remove it within filming schedules. If the machine fails to immobilise, then it should not be approached and the safety link should not be used, regardless of the nuisance this causes filming. The safety link simply cant be treated the same as the emergency kill switches on industrial machinery.

The issue of whether the outer arena wall is capable of resisting damage caused by a flipped FBS is separate to the issue of link placement. If the FBS fails to penetrate the wall when flipped then the likelihood is that the outer body will be wedged and the inner body will spin. I really dont see an OOTA Typhoon running around over the camera tracks, madly battering against the outer wall in an attempt to attack the audience.

On the issue of arena strength: It is Mentorns duty to ensure that no robot goes into the arena that could conceivably leave it through the outer curtain, or could send another through the outer curtain. I suspect that the series 5 arena which was used for series 7 was only barely up to the job, and it is perhaps conceivable that the curtain could have failed to retain Typhoon. In my estimation it could have been flipped while spinning by a powerful, low wedge flipper such as Gravity. Extremely unlikely, but possible. Furthermore, as robot design progresses, the risks worsen.

Well said Richard. The main safety issue really is whether the outer curtain can hold everything back in an OOTA situation, within a few minutes batteries/fuel will run out. Perhaps a 5 foot empty moat below floor level would mean the audience was safe.

i think that mentorn have to look at the way in which the audience enter the stands. if a robot was to exit the arena and, worse case senario, it got through the outer curtain then the only way for the audience to exit would be onto the same floor as that robot. i think the audience should enter the stands from the rear up steps. the stands should also be a few feet off the ground so that an out of control robot wouldnt smash into the front row. i think they should also seriously consider giving the audience an evacuation procedure, like in an aircraft, as unlikely as they are to need it i think the audience should be informed if the worse should happen so that a mass panic doesnt follow. this could be given between battles as there is 15 minutes where the audience are just watching old fights etc.

perhaps also a polycarb fence in front of the audience which is only about 3 ft highish to give some protection, again incase the worst should happen as the current audience have nothing but a few feet of floor in front of them.

A thought

Typhoon has a link fitted on the top of their robot. Why not fit another link on the bottom of there robot which is always left in. It would only be removed if the top link could not be reached. It would cost a slight bit more but not a huge amount and would give extra safety. And i dont see how the two links could bothe be blocked at once.

Also I know its off topic but failsafes dont makt a robot 100% safe. I was driving around with my robot and went into a fast spin (approx 13-14mph) the rx battery poped out of the switch locking the servos in that position. The servos stayed where they were dispite having fs-1s on them. Luckally my robot had no weapons and its only a feather so i could litterally stop it with my foot and pull the link out. I was not happy doing this but i did not see another route as my batts take about 10min to die. So people please do be careful.

Regards
Ian Mc Donald

i think they should also seriously consider giving the audience an evacuation procedure, like in an aircraft, as unlikely as they are to need it i think the audience should be informed if the worse should happen so that a mass panic doesnt follow.

Thats actually a good idea from the show point of view as well, its been discussed on several occasions that the feeling of danger can make the whole thing more exciting if handled correctly.

Isnt any conversation regarding RW a bit beside the point at pressent? I dont think theres to many actually expecting series 8 to happen..

Perhaps Kim has some light to shed on that?

Sam
http://www.shredderteam.comhttp://www.shredderteam.com
http://www.robotcrusade.comhttp://www.robotcrusade.com

In the Dutch events I sometimes try to notify the audience of possible dangers, using posters with warnings, but I was still looking for something better. Garys suggestion has great value, thank you Gary, providing instructions like in an airplane is ideal. I will work on this.

ian, a few problems when it comes to that

1) there is literally no room inside to fit in another link, i think typhoon 2 has to be the worst serviceable robot as everything is literally crambed in. if anything goes seriously wrong inside then thats us out of any competition as it could take half a day just to get to the problem! Anyone who has seen the chassis will know what i mean

2) technically the current link is accecable from underneath, however this would reqire a screw driver

3) if we had to have a link underneath then other teams would have to have the same and i cant see that being too popular

4) the current link we have is a 1000amp aircraft connector costing £1000. another one capable of taking the same current would cost the same.

5) in the qualifier where we were flipped the crew didnt seem to have a problem getting into the bullpen with an upturned typhoon 2 (rather them than me!)

and no problem babeth, i think that crowd safety is a key concern to the future of robotic combat and the issue cannot be ignored any longer.

Ok gary i understand your problem. I have also been told of others. But i was speaking hypothetically (spelling?) an i think in theory that would work

Regards
Ian Mc Donald

na its fine, was just pointing out the difficulties! :)

the current link we have is a 1000amp aircraft connector costing £1000....you lucky swines having the might of the RAF behind you :)

Tom

P.S. I was an air cadet too...Poulton -Le -Fylde squadron 2459 ..my 1st flight in any aircraft was in a Chipmunk from RAF Woodvale near Southport...happy days..never joined the RAF but did get my PPL ...but the usual story of wife/kids/mortgage meant I only had it for 4 years :sad:

Never mind ...(Del boy voice)..one day Ill be a millionaire :)

Seriously though Gary...how much help do you get from the RAF and how much effect has Typhoon and its siblings had on ATC feedback etc? they should class it as a great asset.

Tom

Pitty I never got to see inside Typhoon at S7 it looked a very impressively engineered robot, must have taken a large lathe to make the outer ring. Was too busy fixing ours to pay much attention. It took us 8 hours to tighten one M3 bolt that had come out. Now that was hard to get too. Dont want to have to do that again.

By the way the arena has taken damage so far in the early heats I wouldnt like to know what Big spinners are going to do to it. Would say stronger sides are a must if S8 goes ahead or the more powerful weapons wont be allowed to run which would be a big disapointment.

If I remember correctly Tough As Nails has 2 removable links so that it does not matter if the robot is upside down, you can still pull a removable link out of it anyway. Just a safety precaution. You need to pull out only one of them, the other can stay where it is.