Just heard about this being introduced for FWs for the UK Champs, is it true?
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Just heard about this being introduced for FWs for the UK Champs, is it true?
I really hope it isn't!!!!
If it is I think I might cry :cry:
Same here, the amount I've invested in making Ricochet spinner proof :(
To be honest, I can't see the need for a change.
There have been numerous robots like Tiny Toon that have been very successful.
And if their changing it because they say ram bots are boring, there not. Flippers can be just as boring, if not more so (fights only lasting a few seconds!)
There is NOTHING in the build rules or comp guids that suggests this ......
So I would say not true .....
Also as part of the FRA committee not heard anything about it ....
Pete...
It's something that came up in the past, and was a thing Mentorn introduced in the last series.
It's not in the rules, and even if it would appear now, it won't be in effect for a while.
Where exactly did you hear this Jarvis?
I'm in favor. Nothing worse than spending thousands building an impressive spinner to be knocked out the arena by a hardox box that i could knock together in an afternoon. Box on box matches are dull, end of.
@Pete - Thats relieving, I agree with Sam, rammers can be entertaining!
@Haz - Heard it from Craig Danby at Newport, he said he was building a FW Tanto but didn't because of something about an active weapon rule.
If I remember correctly, Will Thomas said something about the Robo Challenge guys wanting to introduce the active weapon rule. He went onto say that if they did choose to do this, the FRA would not allow them to host the official championships, it would have to be their own tournament.
I'm not sure if that's right though, I was quite early in the morning when he said it and wasn't really awake :)
I should wait for the Robo challenge guys to answer this question for you,
From my point of view. I don't mind either way as I have both types. they could do both active weapon only and all inclusive if they wanted to.
As far as spinners not wanting steel boxes, I would say All is fair in love and Robot Wars.:mrgreen:
I believe one of the problems with an active weapon rules, is that with the lack of allowed "Spinny Devices", the already small enough base of usable weapons on the weight classes will shorten, until either everyone uses the same, or there's 30 of each. Though the solution of making up new effective weapons sounds good, it's not easy, as many experienced builders, and beginners alike looking for something new know.
It was mentioned at the AGM at Whitwick this year that Robochallenge had proposed an active weapon rule. This was voted against by the members of the FRA. So the final decision was that Robochallenge could still introduce the rule for their events but they would not fall within the FRA guidelines.
Thats what I seem to remember anyway so feel free to correct me.
So the guidelines need changing, hmmmm.......
In some ways it makes sense- bots without an active weapon although entertaining have all the other events in the years to get out and play, but for spinners this event is their only chance to get out so it seems fair to stop these other, sometime less entertaining, push bots to make more space and time for the spinners.
To solve this you could open up the sign up to active weapon robots and then opening it up to all robots if there are spaces left.
I don't know because I'm not an event organiser, but doesn't appear to be to much of a problem.
Not sure though :)
Event organisers are still free to put their own restrictions to the event. If those organisers use the active weapon rule, it means less machines can participate.
On the other hand, what is an active weapon?
Watch the crowd during a box on box match. Their faces say it all
That's interesting Mario! Back home there is the active weapon rule, and most competitors who want to get round it and still build a rambot just added a spinning drill bit or cutting disc to their machine, and there you are... active weapon!Quote:
Originally Posted by maddox10
A brilliant move by the FRA - alienate their one FW events organiser. The FRA says that it issues guidelines, and it's up to the Event Organisers to choose how the implement - I'm sorry but if RoboChallenge want to make that choice that's up to them, if the FRA really wants to alienate them - I would say that would be a very bizzare step to take.Quote:
Originally Posted by SamO
FWIW I agree with the concept of the active weapons rule for the feathers, they need all the help they can get for spectacle - a drill box vs a drill box is boring. HOWEVER I would say that a newcomer on their first year CAN run a push-box as the sport needs an easy entry point, that then encourages people to innovate and grow.
Ed
If you want to run a box then run it at any other event. The champs should have weapons
As I have pointed out before:
Robochallenge already have a way of kicking out all the dull boring boxes. It's called the entry list. All robots are allowed to an event at the invite of the event organiser. They can just refuse the entry & refund the fee.
I'd be less worried about the crowds being bored for one fight than potentially putting off new blood, because they can't enter a simple first robot with the big boys. Part of the attraction for us was that we could make a robot powered by drill batteries and made out of any old anything, and still have a chance to beat a champ. Taking that away may further slow the flow of newcomers.
Perhaps a compromise? A rambot that does under 10mph can't weigh any more than 8 or 10kg?
Some wont like this but what about qualifying? Robotwars did it to pick the best and most entertaining machines so that it made a good show.
As the champs are held at GSL, an event where the sport gets seen by thousands of people, you need it to look its best. Each machine should have its own data sheet and probably a video too, showing it off under its ideal conditions and highlighting its unique features.
The advantage of this is that it doesn't rule out any specific weapon type or put limits on the designs. It also means that if you can impress the EO's with your hardox box that can push 50Kg or can hit something so hard it flys over a wall then you can get in.
Being selective about the machines means you can also better choose the type of competition and how its arranged. A 32 machine field with 8x 4 way fights would be an incredible spectical and really make people think about their design as it might not just have to face of a spinner but a spinner, flipper and axe all in the same fight!
(Note: There will probably be flaws in this somewhere)
EDIT: Side thought... as others have rightly pointed out, the only Class 1 arena is RoboChallenge's. No other events allow spinners/should have unless it matches or exceeds that spec. The box's get far more events to test their metal. The champs should be the best of the best.
Also, I think that any driver who has got into the top 4 should be on the panel that helps choose the machines in the event of qualifiers. They all might be able to choose a wild card machine that didn't make the initial cut, but one that has caught their eye, giving younger builders and creative design a chance even if its just a box.
Ceri, not sure what you mean by the above comment? No one is or has been refused entry to any of our events (other than 1 particular welsh man!).
We at Robo Challenge want to increase the diversity of featherweights and were looking into various ways of achieving that. One of them was the possibility of an active weapon rule, however our favoured option that was put to the FRA was a weight restriction for non active weapons. We put forward limiting the weight of pushers to 10kg (which is very easy to build to) which still allowed newcomers to build and compete without an active weapon, but gave a good 3.6kg's of extra weight if you had a weapon. We felt this was fair and would help people think more about building something different and entrrtaining.
The problem is that whenever anything like this goes to an AGM, the result is always in the favour of what's easiest for the roboteer and not what's favourable to the future of the sport.
As an EO we can run whatever rules we like, we don't because we like to keep them the same over all event's - depending on how things go in the future though we may look further into the above rules we proposed.
That's what I mean. You want everyone at your event with a weapon but you as a particular rule do absolutely nothing in your existing ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by grant_ploughbot
Instead, you are trying to get the FRA to implement an entire weight class wide change, upsetting everything else in the process to improve your two events a year. All for you both to be polite & not turn anyone way.
Doesn't Sport happen whether someone watches it or not? If it does, surely that means the new competitors are the future of the sport & the Audience would be a commercial interest?
Not following that sentence at all.Quote:
(other than 1 particular welsh man!).
So glad we are having this debate again:uhoh:
Been there, done that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventorizon
I hope Robochallenge is not starting to promote the biggest brushless/full pressure phallus competition. Because that's what this is turning into, especially with the current OOTA-arena configuration.
I'll wait and see if I can still enter BonX in a RoboChallenge competition in 2014..
As I said, we are not changing any rules for next years champs so you have nothing to worry about :).
Ceri, I think your completely missing the point of the whole idea behind our proposal! Were not trying to upset everything to improve our shows at all. It will have a lot more benefit to HW events than it will to our's - however it's all about improving and progressing the sport as a whole and not just 2 events a year.
Few things to consider:
The FW UK champs is not for crowd entertainment, it's unique from the other EOs in that sense.
We want to get as many people as possible involved in the sport, the more that attend the champs the better. Forcing an active weapon rule may alienate new comers, and even vets (like Tiny Toon, Satanix, Bonx etc)
On the other hand, allowing people to build Ubür defensive boxes that'll usurp highly engineered aggressive robots will alienate event vets and they may stop attending.
At the end of the day there's a decent diversity in robot design in the FWs, and if an Ubür box can defeat a monster spinner then maybe it's time to look at the spinner design.
As spinners have become more and more powerful/effective, they've become more popular. Conversely people see this, either build their own, or try to design something that can beat it. It's the natural evolution of things, and it's true in any competition.
I don't think EVERYONE building boxes is an issue we're going to have.
More frequent events will speed up the rate of design evolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teamstorm
Ha how times have changed. Ed Hoppit being positive about an active weapon rule
Basically its all about the entertainment. I own a featherweight rambot. But it has 800 watts of power and travels at over 10 mph and I hope looks quite entertaining. Rather than a slow robot with an ineffective lifter (analogy, not referencing a robot).
I agree there is a bit of an influx of ram bots but I would suggest that robo challenge has a 'robot wars tv show' qualification style where you have to prove your robot is not only entertaining but also runs fine. I would also hope that as Ed says, any new robotiers who have built there first drill controlled ram bot has leniency and is able to qualify for the first year or two.
I think an all out ban isn't the way to go
Even the most armored box is flippable/OOTAble.
There already are qualifying rounds for the UK champs, passing some sort of scrutineering? No thanks.
The fact is - there is no change from how we have always done it......
Id probably suggest an application type entry... put in your application with a picture etc, if your robots good enough to be entered into a uk championships, then good... but if you turn up with a hardox box with drill motors every year, expect to be turned down eventually.
Thats how most other sports run... you get into a big championship by building yourself a reputation and impressing people and working your way up... just because you own a tennis racket doesnt mean you can expect to enter wimbledon...
People seem to forget that robochallenge are the only EO capable of running fw full combat events... And if the show isnt good enough to watch, it might not happen the next year.
Your machine looked good in the video you put up PJ, you don't have anything to worry about. And your new machine looks cool and is fitted with an electromagnet! That would make the pass if it came down to qualifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ-27
There are many who seem to believe that building a spinner is difficult... it isn't. Conker was my first machine and that was happily tossing 4-4 Toon through the air and was still able to fend off Inertial XL with its plastic armour. Yes Conker 2 took a step up but underneath the electronics and internals were identical; just a different chassis and armour.
Tormanta and Tormanta 2 are also great examples of what looks like a push-but but is armed with some potent weaponry. A bit of tweaking and T2 could easily be made spinner proof (well for 3 minutes anyway).
Several people have built axe's this time too with drill motors with some good results. Again just refine them until they are a potent weapon. And if you gear one of those down further you suddenly have a lifting arm.
Having an active weapon doesn't mean you have to match something like LS4 or Beauty or 720 on your first attempt... that comes with experience and you will only get that experience if you have a go and build one. I started with a spinner in my first year and now the maths says Conker 3 will hit 30% harder than 720 did this year, and have better engagement.
Have a go and you will be pleasantly surprised about how little you need to keep out a spinner.
This sums up why this discussion in my opinion is pointless. That and the fact that it was discussed by the members and voted on,along with a reduction back to 12 kg, by the members of the FRA at the AGM. It was if my memory serves me correctly passed unanimously.Quote:
Originally Posted by grant_ploughbot
It seems I've started a flame war... oops :uhoh:
Actualy, you got half backed information. And you wanted to know the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroGravity100
The truth is, Robot Wars is a show, with a competitive element in it.
And the organisers have the last word.