Lithium Safety Testing - 8th December

Hi Guy's,

There's been a lot of talk recently about the use and safety of LiPo batteries - particularly now that the FRA are getting closer to making a decision on Lithium batteries in Heavyweights.

Everyone's concerns keep boiling down to What if and What actually happens when a large pack goes up. With this in mind, I have decided that we will be holding a demonstration to show exactly what happens when something goes wrong.
I am donating a number of my own LiPo's, all large 6s 5000mA ( 24v ) packs for destructive testing at our workshop during the Robo Challenge Open day / FRA HW and FW awards.
In this, I hope to show what happens when a pack is punctured, what happens when a pack is shorted, and what happens when one pack in a set goes up. Some of these tests will be done on an MDF base to show the effects of a lipo on an arena floor.

I hope that this will help speed up the process and questions regarding lithium safety at events.

I have an expert on hand who will be helping with my presentation on Lithium batteries - Andy Hinton-Lever from OptiPower. He will also be bringing his discharge test rig to show the differences between good and bad lipo cell's, and what to look out for plus much more.

Hope these will be put on u tube as I can't get there.
Split a 5000 11.1v in my vorza a few weekends ago didn't know about it until I took of the body to unplug the batteries, liquid was dribbling out and I could see all the inside stuff, no explosions or anything happened though.

We will get video of the destructive testing as it's something that the FRA will need to look back on to come to their decision on Lipo's in heavies. As you say, lipo's have a bad reputation but are not actually that easy to set fire to! I have found a few ways though ;)

Grant, please do get what you're doing with the LiPo's filmed and put on YouTube, not just the destructive testing, but the session with your LiPo expert would be really good material for all concerned.

I'm confident that the FRA will approve them from what I have heard - I think that the biggest concern is from the EO's at the moment, simply down to the fact that they have no way to extract the large volume of smoke that a LiPo 'dying' produces. I'm not saying they're dangerous, it's the logistical problem of smoke stopping the audience seeing what's going on - and the show having to be stopped, and people waiting until it disperses.

Having seen a LiPo go up in the RoboGames arena.... I know where their concern is coming from - but it's not a safety issue.

Great job guys !

@Ed

Have you got a video of the one going up in the Robogames arena?

No sorry :-(

There are loads of videos of lipos going up in smoke/flames in robots (particularly the smaller weight classes) at American events. I was going to post links but generic searching on Youtube of 'lipo fire robot battle' etc doesn't really show up much.

I actually think its a valid point from an EO point of view - safety issue or not, if the arena fills with smoke and the show has to wait until it disperses.... that would be a logistical issue.

And I don't think anyone would deny LiPo's create plenty of smoke ;-) !

Couple hundred quid for a decent fan and flexible ducting to run it outside should be able to clear an arena space in a few min

Or for those who might doubt the amount of smoke...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAFntdaLtHA

You can see why an EO might be concerned - and it takes more than a fan and a hose to shift that volume of air !

But I think we'll soon get agreement there isn't a safety issue in play

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Originally Posted by teamstorm

But I think we'll soon get agreement there isn't a safety issue in play

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4min 50sec into the fight :shock:
Sorry was it only me who saw the flames? :uhoh: :uhoh:

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...a=1&TC=SRC-fan

Something like that with ducting similar to that flexible tunnel stuff you played with as a kid would clear that space in no time

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Originally Posted by craig_colliass

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Originally Posted by teamstorm

But I think we'll soon get agreement there isn't a safety issue in play

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4min 50sec into the fight :shock:
Sorry was it only me who saw the flames? :uhoh: :uhoh:

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And what is the problem with fire?

Fire are a concern anywhere, i'm more worried about fire in the pits than in the arena though, smoke is an issue when in the arena. The fan you pointed out Gary, doesn't take ducting, if you look they do the smaller ones that do, for that we're looking £500 for a setup and it would take about 8minutes to empty our arena.

The issues aren't as much with the batteries themselves, but more the users attitude towards them. This is for me the big issue to get around.

As someone who has no experience currently with these batteries, I'm am waiting in anticipation the tests/talk about them, even though tests are being carried out by certain experienced roboteers it would be good to see a video/discussion directly from experts and willing to show the worst case scenario, good to see someone grab the bulls by the horns (as it were) it will b nothing but educational to all, well done robochallenge!!
But in the videos I have seen on youtube I worry about the head scratching it all cause for eo's, plus the extra cost in dealing with a incident quickly, I have seen first hand in keeping audience occupied in a battle changeover let alone waiting to clear a arena of smoke, out of interest with no experience myself, are the fumes pretty nasty in smell??? As a audiance member it could be quite good viewing tbh, but things are bad enough in these economic times and from a eo point of view how does allowing these batteries benefit them??should the worst happen,

Btw I'm happy to here opinions or arguements, just trying to think outside the box that's all

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Originally Posted by blazerbotics

Fire are a concern anywhere,

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A starting fire is something you have to deal with.
In case of a LiPo fire in the arena, keep the burning machine in a cloud of CO2, to avoid ignition of more stuff. Using anything else would case damage to everything, delaying the show a lot.
And except some exotic foams or powders, quelshing a Lithium fire is next to hopeless. On the other hand, the amounts of lithium, even for heavies, are not that impressive.

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I'm more worried about fire in the pits than in the arena though, smoke is an issue when in the arena.

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The smoke is a problem everywere.

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The fan you pointed out Gary, doesn't take ducting, if you look they do the smaller ones that do, for that we're looking £500 for a setup and it would take about 8minutes to empty our arena.

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Well spend £500 then.

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The issues aren't as much with the batteries themselves, but more the users attitude towards them. This is for me the big issue to get around.

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That was an issue with any kind of battery. Even seen an exploded lead-acid? I did. Not funny.
I still see the burning NiCd pack at Maidstone a lot of years back.. Who was running around with it, the battery dangeling on a half molten wire? To dunk it in a bucket of water.

Oh well, more rules please.

Is the risk of fire not greatly increased by doing what they did in that video - continuing to fight? Running a badly damaged battery for that long after the smoke starts seems crazy. At an event here, at the first sign of smoke make it a thing that everyone stops dead and it is dealt with immediately. I don't know how LiPos ignite but in a situation like the one in the video, perhaps the fire could have been avoided.

Unless already planned, maybe that's a test to do, Grant and co., running a LiPo after it has been damaged and what happens when you do?

I would agree with ellis there, would be interesting to see what can happen if a damaged lipo is kept running incase with all the co2 exausts etc it wasnt noticed till too late

I await the results of the tests and the subsequent ruling with much interest

What does that smoke consist of - dont think id want to be inhaling it if its just spewed out of a battery.
I remember the time Kanopeners NiCads went up - the smoke was terrible.... and the fire wouldnt go out cos it was a chain reaction - is it the same with the Lipo battery's?

Burning LiPo's give of smoke from burning insulation and evaporating electrolite. Never a good thing.

But at least the amount of heavy metals ain't an issue.


In any case, that is why ventilation should be a thing to invest in.

May sound to easy but i am only running hard case lipo in feathers like in model cars for example, surely this would greatly reduce possible impact damage and contain any possible internal battery damage for the most part. Never in racing cars or many other machines have i ever damaged a hard case lipo battery they are very strong. I would never consider using soft case lipo battery in a robot because there very nature requires such gentle handling and lots of protection, there soft outer must allow for huge internal deflection when taking heavy impacts.

Adrian, this is one thing that has been discussed at length, particularly for the HW's.
You can't tend to buy anything more than 2S lipo's with a hard case as they are designed for RC cars as you know. In the RC car world, there is a stipulation to use hard case lipo's due to the amount of crashes in a race and the amount of damage a normal battery takes. Because RC cars are so readily available and popular you get all sorts of people using them who do not have a clue or want to know how to look after packs and the hard case helps with all that.
On that note, I think that all HW lipo's should be secured in some form of hard case. Nothing heavy and expensive, even just a plastic padded box so that if it ends up rattling around inside it can't rub on things or get punctured etc. I believe that this will stop the majority of issues and damage.

Another concern that people have had is the constant shocks in a robot and the possible damage that might cause even with the lipo in a padded box. Luckily this isn't an issue at all (it is an issue for Hawkers etc). In RC heli's we are changing directions at over 20G at times, hundreds of times a flight for hundreds of flights and it has never caused an issue. Even in severe crashes when the lipo is badly bent the chemistry is still safe.

I know people are asking for all sorts of extra tests, sadly I only have a limited supply of lipo's that I can donate to the cause. The large packs I am donating cost me about £100 a pack, so I will only be testing things that are completely relavent. If I have enough, I will do a test to show what happens when you taco a pack (bend it like a taco :) ).

The company I work for has listed the 3 major hazards that are likely to cause serious injury in our line of work (Oil exploration);

Radioactive Sources,
Explosives,
Lithium Batteries.

It is not hard to see why I am a little bit concerned........

Trev

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Originally Posted by mightymouse

The company I work for has listed the 3 major hazards that are likely to cause serious injury in our line of work (Oil exploration);

Radioactive Sources,
Explosives,
Lithium Batteries.

It is not hard to see why I am a little bit concerned........

Trev

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In the Oil Industry every source of ignition is a source of concern. No discution there.

But what would a LiPo fire do in the arena? Put the floor on fire? Melt polycarb?Ignite the liters of leaked hydraulic oil?
Even the combination of Sir Killalot leaking oil combined with the flamepit and Sergant Bash's flametrower didn't ignite the floor.

And in the pits. I believe the rules take care of that too.

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7.8 LiPo
Lithium Polymer batteries have specific limitations and extra precautions which must be adhered to.
7.8.1 Balancers
Appropriate balancers must be provided if not part of the charger. They will be inspected during the
Technical Check. LiPo batteries should be properly balanced to prevent damage occurring to the cells.
7.8.2 Voltage Cut-out (Advisory)
The robot should be fitted with an under voltage cut-out or alarm set at or higher than the battery
manufacturer€Ÿs recommendation to prevent the batteries from becoming damaged by over discharge.
7.8.3 Fusing
A fuse rated below the maximum burst discharge of the battery must be fitted.
7.8.4 Extra Equipment
Roboteers using LiPo batteries must provide a LiPo sack.
7.8.5 Inspection
LiPo batteries must be removed from the robot, inspected and placed into a LiPo sack prior to and during
the charging process.
7.8.6 Charging
Lithium batteries must not be left unattended at any time during the charging process. Leaving batteries
unattended while charging will be considered a serious breach of pit safety and may result in you and
your robot being removed from the event.
7.8.7 Damage
LiPo batteries showing any evidence of damage or swelling must immediately be placed a LiPo sack and
removed to a safe, well-ventilated area such as outdoors.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mightymouse

The company I work for has listed the 3 major hazards that are likely to cause serious injury in our line of work (Oil exploration);

Radioactive Sources,
Explosives,
Lithium Batteries.

It is not hard to see why I am a little bit concerned........

Trev

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Why specifically lithium though and not batteries in general? A123's are lithium based as well yet not the same as Li-Ion or LiPo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mightymouse

The company I work for has listed the 3 major hazards that are likely to cause serious injury in our line of work (Oil exploration);

Radioactive Sources,
Explosives,
Lithium Batteries.

It is not hard to see why I am a little bit concerned........

Trev

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Just ban Oil exploration in the arena and pit area, wont have any problems with above then

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Originally Posted by team_mute

Just ban Oil exploration in the arena and pit area, wont have any problems with above then

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:mrgreen:

I'm looking forward to the E O's comments on this subject, like Trev I have my concerns, but at the same time would love to use them in the next Saint :idea:

If you approach them with the right attitude there won't be a problem. I mean....back then who would have thought we traverse the roads in a steel shell with 70 litres of explosive liquid on board.

In the world of oil I've always found that it's ignorance and lack of attention to the small details that causes issues. Not any one particular technology. The same applies here. Make a rule set, follow it, ban anyone from using lipo that doesn't adhere to the rules.

And I mean BAN