Tormenta 2 - Build Diary

Hi guys! About time I make this thread I reckon.

Tormenta 2. We're hoping this machine turns out to be what Tormenta could have been and more. Much of v1 will be reused in this machine. The whole drive train and control system will be the same, but made more reliable. We were very happy with Tormenta's drive so we will be sticking with its drills. All of its reliability problems came from the failure of plastic gears, so we will be using all metal. Speed control wasn't brilliant with the Electronize but it will do for the moment. We may look into more precise control if it becomes a problem.

The weapon will hopefully be more interesting. It's a big-drill powered lifter/flipper style thing, comparable to that of a certain famous American robot.

The chassis will be entirely HDPE (we may use some chopping board in low-risk places to keep the Tormenta spirit!), 10mm base, 20mm bulkheads and 10mm armour all round. If we have the weight left over I am hoping for a big steel wedge on the lifter, spanning more than the width of the robot.

We have 2 batteries, 4 drills, 1 mega drill, chains and sprockets, 3 ESCs, radio battery and receiver, all the wires, and God knows what else, to fit inside. This robot will be smaller than Tormenta. The inside width is 21cm, whilst the length (again, usable inside space) about 35cm.

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Think that pretty much covers it. We have made some progress with weapon test rigs, as you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehbNsEld ... re=youtube

And all photos, as ever, will be going on a Photobucket album, here: http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i32 ... menta 2/

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Any questions, ask away. In the meantime I'm going to attack the drill shaft, as so far every attempt to secure the sprocket has failed. Next stop: cotter pins!

Ellis

yeah i am so despirate to see tormenta 2.
its gonna be awesome.
what's the Mega drill?
keep the old tormenta shape.
looked one of the best shape bots at the champs.

Thanks Archie. This robot will be quite different to Tormenta, though we do intend to keep it as white as possible as it stood out quite nicely.

This weapon test was much more successful! We drilled through the 3 layers (nut, shaft, screw) that hold the sprocket on and put a pin (masonry nail) through. So far it seems to have done the trick. Video demonstration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoaCWgPdANk

good man, remind me to praise you next time you are on msn

You know I said chopping boards were a bad idea? Same goes for Plywood... Haha.

Looks awesome, although I too was planning on ripping off Sewer Snake.....

Just added a bunch of pictures of the CAD I have put together for Tormenta 2: http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i32 ... menta 2/

I finally feel I have done Sketchup justice and can move on to better software. :lol:

Looks really, really good! :)
Cant wait to see it in action, when is it going to be built by :?:

That looks epic Ellis! So compact as well, getting on for Jamiesque density!

you have got skills on cad man!
what software did you use?

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Originally Posted by Relentless

I finally feel I have done Sketchup justice and can move on to better software. :lol:

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oops cheers haz.
looks good for sketchup i can't do that

The CAD has actually changed some since I (a little foolishly I now know) uploaded loads of pictures. Main change is to the front, in that the shaft is now in the middle of the robot (up and down wise) and so the shape of the theoretical scoop has changed. 'Top' lifter has too. Oh and the front drive motors have been moved back 25mm.

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Day 1 of the actual build has come and gone! We made very good progress in the few hours we were out there. So incredibly hot (I currently have a serious headache) that we took quite frequent breaks but still, things went very well.

We managed to get the bulkheads well on the way, got the back armour cut and made the main shapes of the four drive motor mounts. Currently our only precision let-down has been the back armour which is a piece of black HDPE 90mm OD piping cut in half, and as it comes on a reel the piece we got was madly bent. We have managed to get it close to straight, and we will do eventually, but it's not great.

Otherwise, everything went disturbingly smoothly. I am fully aware that we will pay in one way or another down the line (I have no idea how we'll get this thing in weight) so hopefully I won't jinx it by knowing that!

Anyway, pics of today's progress - http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i32 ... menta 2/

looks great man, think you're on to a winner.

you solve the problem of it being bloody massive yet? or did you just do the sensible thing and ignore it?

Ignored it and actually made it bigger still. :crazy:

Thanks.

Second day has gone well. Back motors are ready to be permanently mounted, and the front ones are close. The front motors in the pics are not the final ones. We have to buy some fresh, as the poor things (as you can see) in the pics are pretty ratty now. Believe they were once NST's drive motors, so they must have given a couple years worth of use. We still have them as spares.

Tomorrow we intend to join everything built so far together. Going to be interesting, as the system we are going to use is a barrel-nut-and-bolt style... thing. Having tried it on some test pieces, accuracy is crucial. Accuracy we don't really have.

Oh well, we shall find out, I am sure. Pics of today's work: http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i32 ... menta 2/

Must say I am/we are quite proud of those motor mounts. Neat and light and strong yet flexible. Good.

We got the new drills yesterday and I got them into shape for use over the course of today. In the process I made this video, if anyone is interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJMoh2C2Hdo

Having prepped both, my dad and I managed to get some time in. All four motors are now mounted (not permanently but the setup is complete) and we mated the two bulkheads with the baseplate. Miraculously, it sits level. Really level. We both simply stared at it when we first put it on something flat. Right on target at 3-4mm!

Pics fresh from the oven: http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i32 ... menta 2/

If we get some time, tomorrow could well be test day. We charged the batteries tonight in preparation. Since this one is low to the ground (unlike Tormenta's 10mm), we're not sure where to test it. Perhaps the local sports centre?

And if anyone is interested, it weighs in the region of 5kgs at this point. 3.2kg of that is in the motors, their mounts, and the wheels.

We have done a good bit of the wiring, and jeez this thing is small inside! Actually quite worrying, there won't be any free space at all!

Since we have the right batteries and it weighs just over 5kgs, it goes like an absolute bat out of hell. It's almost silly. It wheel spins for almost 2 seconds as it is. Might try and get a video but the wiring is all over the place and, bringing me to my two points:

The motors got hot (any more and it would be uncomfortable to hold a hand on one) after just a minute or two of feathering the throttle, with a full blast or two here and there, around the living room. Could they be getting hot because, being at relatively low rpm as I was being light on the throttle, the motors are getting full power (some 20vs) but the fans aren't doing anything? By that logic, driving faster would result in less heat? Is that possible?

And secondly, the Electronize are all over the place in control, really. Fine for Tormenta but we'll be limiting the drive of v2 if we stick to them. Would people advise for or against getting two of the 25a BotBitz controllers? They come to similar money as a single new 30a Electronize which is what we need for the lifter, so..

Thanks.

Being the fastest isnt always a good thing....

With some tx's you can limit the throttle to a set percentage - basically setting it so it never goes above a certain voltage...

on my dx7 i have a 3 position toggle switch thats assigned for limiting the throttle in diablo...all the way back is high speed, middle position is about 80% and the last position is about 50%.

My first combat test of the botbitz esc's will be on sunday, ill let you know how they do, but all the aussies are using them now with no troubles. Theres a video of diablo driving around on my youtube page that might help you decide.

sounds good there Ellis
when your electronics are really compact either tape or heat sink the wires. i shorted hazard2 about 2/3 times i. think mostly because of. the wiring.
and 20v dosent sound good with drills

Thanks guys. Yeah we're being very careful with the internals: heatshrink on everything, nothing will be longer than it has to be, etc. Also making sure not one bit of the system can limit power. From the output of the batteries to the motor terminals everything is rated 30amps-able or above. Result is it screams. As for 20v, we have the 18v packs but fully charged they're around 20v. We ran the setup in Tormenta for 7 battles without an issue. Fingers crossed.

@Dave, we had considered limiting the voltage via the tx once or twice but found ourselves wondering why. It'll be battling for an absolute max of 3 minutes, I like to think the motors will handle that time, especially since most of it will be near full throttle and the fans should work. Plus, we're using the functional but simple Planet 5, which doesn't have any fancy limits built in. :?

I saw the video of Diablo on your channel, but you were running the 85a model, right? You say you'll be testing the Botbitz on Sunday, you mean the 25a or 85a ones?

Thanks.

The start-stop nature of robot fighting renders the cooling fans useless, plus we put tape over them! So I wouldn't worry/rely on them.

Most motors will get toastie after 3minutes of action, just let them cool after and take spares!

Yeah, I think take spares is the answer!

I just had another drive test without worrying about making noise in the house and holy $%!@ batman, it's silly. When it weighs 3 times this it'll be more practical. As it is I can barely get it past wheel spin in the length of our living room. And it's scraping on the floor (and scratching our shiny baseplate :cry:). Exciting!

It never got this hot in Tormenta. But, it just occurred to us, I mean we HAVE made improvements to the electronics overall stability and power, but, we live in Spain! We only ever used Tormenta with these batteries in the UK. It's currently 36°C in the shade. Maybe 20°C more than the same components felt in the UK, or thereabouts. Hoping it is largely that - the robot is warm before it even starts!

Also, we tape the motors when we're building, but surely not in combat? What's the point?

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Also, we tape the motors when we're building, but surely not in combat? What's the point?

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You kidding me!? The amount of swarf, dust and general crap you'll pick up in the arena/pit area is unbelievable! Keep them taped up.
Those motors are quite literally magnets for stuff to get stuck in them.

another better alternative imo is maybe to use a mesh/net metal over the fan intakes

kinda meeting the middle, keeping most crap out but letting useful air in, you may aswell use this feature of the motor as it does serve a purpose i have never taped up the intkes and all my motors still work, the weak point in a drill motor imo is the gearbox

I've often thought about using foam or sponge to cover the vents.

i think foam or sponge may be difficult to keep in check obviously the last thing you want is the motor wrapping sponge around its internals :proud:

You could use something like this:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Conne ... ape-123492

if youve got the space why not use a rc 550 heatsink on the motors

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/540-550-RC-EP ... 2293wt_922

you can even get them with fan attached

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/540-550-RC-EP ... 2153wt_922

Ellis - sorry i meant the 85's - deffo worth the exstra £26 for an esc you can use and not have to worry about IMO...

make sure you try a load test.... i drove 540 around at home outside for 10mins fine, always blew up in the arena though.... strap a 20kg load ontop of it and drive it about in anger, it'll simulate combat conditions a bit better.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Today it reached 38°C in the shade, maybe that had something to do with the overheating. :lol:

We may try and bash some old heatsinks we have around the place into circles and make our own. Thanks for the link, though.

Dave, thought so! Sadly we'd need 2, putting the 'extra' at a £52, some £52 over budget!

I'll be contacting the guy(s) behind BotBitz as to whether they think their 25a models would be happy working around their limit. We have blown a 15a fuse with a single normal 12v drill in the past, so on paper they'd be right on their limit. If they say they'll be fine, then we'll probably go for them.

Thanks.

Had a bit of a pause there, but we got some stuff done tonight. Positioned and drilled the main shaft holes in the bulkheads and shaped them, and cut the baseplate to size. Also more or less finalised the way the 'top-lifter' will work (won't be particularly pretty but should be effective).

We managed to take apart what we have made so far with a 10mm spanner, a single allen-key and about 4 minutes of twisting. Pretty happy about that. It'll become less speedy as more gets bolted on but it's quite a nice party trick to be able to make the robot seemingly disappear in 10 minutes! Goes together sweetly too. A world away from Tormenta 1.

Pics of what we did: http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i32 ... menta 2/

This is looking really nice, were you inspired by sewer snake? very similar lifter idea, and its a champion so the weapon is proved as long as the weapon motor has some grunt. Question could you make the whole bot shorter? save some weight for armour :)

Thanks, and yes, Sewer Snake is the inspiration. Sadly we can't make it any shorter unless we spend some pretty major cash on LiPo power and smaller ESCs. As it is it isn't going to be a breeze getting everything in, stupidly I forgot to consider wires when I made the CAD! It may turn out to be physically impossible, haha.

I reckon that with the amount of effort and time you are spending on this one, its worth considering a spend on the lipo's you will be able to save loads of weight and space. I know its more cash, but it seems a shame to waste the opportunity. I hope you are using a lot of bolts on this one :). I think it will do well, I've been watching videos of Sewer Snake, the weapon is effective and versatile. if only he would cover his wheels up :)

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Originally Posted by Gabe01

I reckon that with the amount of effort and time you are spending on this one, its worth considering a spend on the lipo's you will be able to save loads of weight and space. I know its more cash, but it seems a shame to waste the opportunity. I hope you are using a lot of bolts on this one :). I think it will do well, I've been watching videos of Sewer Snake, the weapon is effective and versatile. if only he would cover his wheels up :)

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Yeah, as much as we'd love to justify spending lots of money on this, we really can't. We're not exactly building it cheaply, but it's in the spirit of things (for us anyway) to have to use some sideways thinking. Better ESCs would actually be more desirable than going LiPo I think, but ah well. Maybe if it does well we'll treat it and ourselves with more up-to-date components. We could probably save a kilo by going LiPo alone...

We have saved a lot of weight over the previous machine though, for example, it's now at driving stage and it's a good 3kgs lighter than Tormenta was before it could drive around. The weight will be in the lifter business. It's there we'll have an issue if there is going to be one.

We too hope it'll do well. Sewer Snake has had huge success, I think largely down to ruggedness. This thing will hopefully work in the same way. The nature of the weapon means it has to be tough.

And yes, all nuts and bolts... the barrel nuts work a charm!

How do you plan on fitting in the weapon motor?

its already fitted

Just looks like the Gearbox, either that or the motor is also in the casing, can't be good for cooling!

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/...5082012525.jpg

Ah I see what you mean, yes it does. I wonder what motor it is?

I would also be tempted to put a ring of HDPE around the motor, the chain is going around. It will help tension the chain and stop it fouling the motor.