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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
So. Not only do we have four robots in this annihilator instead of 6, the entire line up has been changed as well for some reason, and in fact the annihilator line up strongly resembles the final line up instead. Strange.
Storm 2 vs Tornado
Fairly even at first, with both robots edging around and shoving. It looked like Tornado had the lower scoop for one thing. However Storm got one lift in, turned the champ over and that was that. There was some running around but Tornado just couldnt do anything useful and was slammed all over the arena. No offense to the Tornado boys but I found it quite funny to see Tornado get a taste of its own medicine:) Great fight.
Dodgy editing watch
Refbot opened the pit, which Tornado was dumped on as it lowered. The camera cut away for a second, and the next thing we saw the pit was in its fully raised position allowing Tornado to drive off.
Winner: Storm 2
Typhoon vs X-Terminator
X-Terminator just wasnt quick enough to attack Typhoon before it got away and spun up. As i thought, Typhoon had the longer reach so X-Terminator couldnt attack it without taking damage. So like Tornado before it, X-Terminator got a bit of its own medicine. Although it wasnt as funny. Another great fight, and the arena getting destroyed was a bonus:)
Winner: Typhoon 2
Tornado vs X-Terminator
X-Terminator was moving and spinning but I dont think theyd gotten all the damage fixed, and were still ailing for most of the fight before they broke down. The Matilda came in and did some more damage. Nice one. This was the only fight I felt was below par, because I dont think X-Terminator was runnign at 100%.
Winner: tornado
Storm 2 vs Typhoon 2
I thought Storm 2 would suceed where everyone else failed, and reach Typhoon before it spun up. however they didnt, and for what seemed like quite a while Storm 2 couldnt get near Typhoon without taking a wallop or three. Then they got the lifter under and things got very tense. Would Typhoon be rolled over? But the answer was no as Storm 2 couldnt seem to dislodge Typhoon! When they managed, it fell back on its wheels but didnt spin up for a while! Then it started and again for a while Storm 2 couldnt get near although Typhoon nearly bounced into the pit twice. Then storm 2 was on top for the rest of the fight, but didnt suceed in finishing off Typhoon and it went to the judges! Fight of the night, and we finally find out how the judges mark. Better late than never I guess. Muchos congratulations to team Typhoon, muchos comiserations to team Storm, and the ultimate proof that armour is only as good as what holds it in place:proud:
Winner: Typhoon 2
Typhoon 2 vs Arena
The arena didnt stand a chance! It may be bullet proof, but it needs to be Typhoon proof.
Incidentally Gary, it looked like the second smashing was done on purpose. Was it?
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
lol great review frank and yes typhoon desreved to win it even though storm 2 should of won but the damage at the end put them out of it :) What a wooty good review :P
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Another point about the arena wall i dont think they did it on purpose maybe losted control and went a different direction instead of the other or maybe having some fun :P
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
I bet the Tech Crew must love Typhoon, Two arena smashes in two fights, what a powerful robot that is
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
congratulations to gary and the Typhoon 2 team for winning robot wars
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
My reviews:
Storm 2 V Tornado
At last, its the fight everyone was dying to see. Unsurprisingly, it ground down to a pushing match. Unsurprisingly, Storm 2 won. Unsurprising really. Tornado looked good at first as they looked lower than Storm at the front giving them the edge, but unfortunately for them some deft manouvering by the new blood champs but the champs well out of it from then on. It was cool to see Tornado being pushed about for once. What i didnt like about this fight was the malfunctioning pit, at one point Tronado were down!! Oh well, maybe it was raised to make it more exciting. A good fight all round.
Typhoon 2 V X-Terminator
Just like i predicted, over before it began, really. Typhoon twice as fast and a bazilion times more deadly. They got beaten up very badly by the impressive Typhoon 2. Altogether fairly entertaining, especially the whooping of the arena!! :)
Play off
Tornado V X-Terminator
X-T was never really working properly and so was at a distinct disadvanatge. To their credit, they kept going at, just like they did against Typhoon. Well done guys, but only one in it really. Tornado through to the world champs.
The Final
Storm 2 V Typhoon 2
Two robots i really admire going at in what promised to be a most fantastic fight. It has it all, smashes, lifts, collsions and even stops. The arena once again pasted by the awesome Typhoon weaponry, although it failed to do the same to Storm 2 for most of the fight. Storm was very confident going in, maybe too confident. Hugely cotroversial result, Storm 2 were all over Typhoon for the vast majority of the fights(s). Only one moment in a CPZ when Typhoon (matilda?) done the only noticable damage of the entire fight. Damage, Typhoon wins. Control, definately Storm. Aggression, deifinately Storm again. But style?? how do they judge this??? All i saw was backing away from Storm 2, aggression from Storm 2 and some damage to the arena caused by Typhoon retreating. Damage must outweigh everything else by so many points on the judges cards, thats the only explanation i have. But nevertheless, good to see a damaging robot carry the title off, and one with no srimech against so many flippers!!
Dont get me wrong, i have no problem with the outcome, and i really like Typhoon 2, perhaps more so than Storm, i just feel the judges got it wrong, and were inconsistent in how they judged the results. Perhaps it was revenge for the Storm/Mute result in new bloods which i also badly felt should have gone the other way.
Nevertheless, a great end to a truly great tournament, the best yet. And robot wars is always best served controversial. From myself, a huge congratulations to all the teams and their lovingly crafted scrap metal chunks. Hope to see you all back on five soon!!! :proud:
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
NOOO!! Storm 2 got beaten, ah well, congratulations to the Air Cadets & Typhoon 2.
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
I watched that last fight and when Gary slammed into the arena he didnt look to be under pressure...
Honestly, and i hate saying this but i do believe this, the wrong robot won. To me, it looked like Storm 2 were on top most of the fight and they were unlucky to lose due to one panel coming off.
Seems to me, the judging is flawed if a robot could choose to just spin round on the spot (no i know Typhoon didnt so this, that was what Spin Doctor did in series 2 i believe) and cause damage even if the other robots driving was better.
Sorry Gary, but i honestly think the decision went the wrong way, thats just my opinion.
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
wots more unlucly is that Typhoon were more damaged than storm 2. Im sure I saw what looked like a chain come off and typhoons weapon had stopped working. i dont understand how when a robot takes damage that stopis its weapon working and bits like chains were coming off anyone was pretending that there was no damage. dont know you gary but i think you should have handed the trophy over if the win was given coz you had no damage expected more honor than that from the raf
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Hmm. Well, Im a great fan of Typhoon, and Gary has presented himself on this forum as an admirable and impeccable member of the roboteering community, but I cant help but be a bit dissatisfied by the finals.
*Let the rant begin*
Im flummoxed as to why a robot which has stopped its own weapon by driving itself into the wall should be allowed to spin up again before the fight is restarted. X-Terminator, while losing badly, had Typhoon lined up to be shoved into a CPZ and its weapon stopped after the first wall damage.
Id always felt that pinging Typhoon into a wall was a valid strategy (you get hit once, and then a slide across the arena; T2 gets one impact off you and another off the wall). If T2 is allowed to spin up again, so much for that theory (or shoving it into a wall without stopping the spinner, for that matter).
As for the pit - it did seem to be slightly lowered when Tornado climbed out - I presumed theyd just left it in a hurry and it had lowered behind them. Their ramp was the right way round to let them ride out over a bump. As for what RefBot was doing lowering the pit in the first place I dont know (although I did think Ed should have done it himself).
The final itself; first, what exactly happened to Storm? It looked as though one of T2s hits dinged the edge of the panel which came loose, and presumably weakened the bolts(?) holding it in place. Always felt that corners and spinners dont mix - Im surprised that Storm isnt more rounded at the edges, although thats hard to do. I did think uh-oh when that happened, though - good driving by Gary/bad driving by Ed to let it happen. If that was the instigator, blaming the quality of welding seems a bit harsh.
After that it looked like it was either T2 getting stuck on the edge of the pit while Storm rammed it, or Storm hitting the wall in the CPZ, which actually caused the panel to give. Didnt look like a spike got it, at least.
Ed - thats just a spectators viewpoint; can you add detail with more knowledge of the failed components, or tell me Im talking nonsense?
Im still a bit dubious that T2 was allowed to spin up after giving itself a time-out from ramming the wall, but it didnt seem to make much difference. Im more incensed that the director had clearly told the house robots not to get involved, again. This policy has left Razer wedged under an angle grinder while being attacked by Tornado, Tornado suspended so Razer wouldnt take damage, and now Matilda running away where Storm was clearly expecting some help either in the form of a flywheel or some flipping tusks. Not getting involved even when there are robots in the CPZ seems a bit much, and clearly someone is aware that the house robots are unfairly influencing fights - if theyre not allowed to be involved, they shouldnt be in the arena.
I think Ed was a bit unwise to concentrate on ramming a shock-mounted steel ring in the hope of breaking something inside. Once it was clear T2 wasnt going to get flipped or OOTAd and the house robots werent going to help, Id have thought hed concentrate solely on getting T2 in the pit. Storm was clearly ahead on points. Beyond that, though, I think Ed did a sterling job with every attack mechanism available to him.
Gary - how intact *was* T2 at the end of that fight? Were the battery problems keeping you out of the world championships anything to do with the fight? Was the weapon fully working (belts stretched? seemed slow to spin up) or just hot/you were conserving fuel?
Im also curious in what precise manner Typhoon was judged to be ahead on style, but each to their own.
Anyway, well done Gary for building a machine so capable of withstanding damage (although the remit to stick a big lump of steel round the outside probably helps...) and, especially in the Atomic fight, for most definitely having the luck needed to become champion! And well done Ed for a most impressive performance.
Mentorn, on the other hand, remain in my bad books. (And what *is* the point of showing that Jayne is actually interested in whats going on, rather than showing the fight?)
Still, it gives us something to talk about!
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Fluppet
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Meant to ask - weve been told Typhoon didnt enter the World Championships; did it enter anything else, or have we seen the last of it this year? (I dont recall seeing it listed for anything else, but I just wondered).
Whatever, good performance for a robot which couldve been toppled by Bigger Brother in the first round!
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Fluppet
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
well im not going to contradict any comments, those are yours to make and feel free to say we didnt deserve the win.
we didnt enter the world champ because we only had 2 sets of batteries and these were also in use in the middleweight because as i said on the show, we didnt expect to get far and so had no spares. Hense we decided to enter the middleweights. That was typhoon 2s last battle in series 7
the weapon was fully working at the end of the battle, the only problem was with the temperatures inside stalling the engine, but after some time to cool down it was fine.
the reason for the weapon spin up, as far as i can understand is that the director wanted to continue the battles as if nothing had happened, hense same positions in the arena etc.
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Im not saying you didnt do a good job Gary, in fact in most Grand Finals i would have been happy with a Typhoon win, i just feel that Storm 2 did better. That is in no way saying that you didnt drive well.
Seeing how the robots have advanced is interesting, the final was between the 16th seed New Blood winner and an unseeded robot, that alone testifies the need of the current robots to constantly improve.
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
sorry gary but i disagree what i posted was not a comment but fact! i have just watched the final again and you can see typhoon lose a drive chain and the weapons system wasnt working whatever the reason doesnt matter and the fact it was fine later on isnt the point. its odd that you havnt admitted in any of your posts that you lost one how could you guys take the trophy on the basis you took no damage when you must have known you took damage
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
The judges inspected the robots, i get the impression that the drivers didnt. If the *JUDGES* say there was no damage or that there was less damage then that is FACT
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
I think he would know if the robots drive chain fell off, you only saw something on the tv which no-one else did, I am pleased Typhoon won, little controversal but it was a very close fight
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Oh dear; this was always going to be a lets get at Gary thread, even though most of us are trying to be nice about it. A pity that when someone so friendly and active on this forum wins a championship, he cant enjoy it!
Gary - thanks for the clarification about the batteries; I just wondered, it wasnt an accusation! Congratulations on buffering them well enough (teach team Whyachi...) As for the motor, sounds fine to me, we wouldnt complain if a flippers flip gets less powerful as the system ices up. Just wasnt clear from the footage.
As for the business of spinning up, that in no way reflects badly on you (just as Tornado having a go at Razer while it was stuck under the angle grinder doesnt reflect badly on them) - its just another example of the director having what could be considered to be an unfair influence on fights. Perhaps they were thinking of editing out the arena damage, like they did when Growler broke it it in Extreme 2.
Anyway, chain aside (I didnt see this, so Ill have to have another look, but if Gary says there was no damage then Ill believe him) it sounds as though damage certainly goes to Typhoon - although Id say not by a lot, since it was largely self-inflicted. I dont trust the judges as far as I can throw them to spot anything wrong with a machine, though, ever since the Extreme Warriors fiasco (regardless of peoples opinion of the result, and Ive not seen the fight, obvious mistakes seem to have been made).
I *am* dubious about the points for style, if Craig wasnt making that up, but if were sticking to that decision then my feeling is that Gary won the fight (more through Eds doing than his own, although not entirely so, and Typhoon still had to be built to stand up to the punishment) but that between the re-spinup and the house robots the fight itself was unfair (as some previous fights have been).
As for handing over the trophy, I dont think Gary can be blamed for not doing that. Hes not just representing the people in the control booth, but all the people in his squadron who worked on it. I dont think we can complain if he didnt want to deny them the reward for all the work theyd put in without giving them a say - and Im sure the award will do more good in publicity for the cadets than it would on Eds shelf (so long as Gary keeps being active in the FRA, of course!)
So, again, well done Gary, and Ed: you were robbed, but you might have left the keys in the door. :-)
Will we next see Storm 2 with an extension on the lifter so that it can turn over wide robots like Typhoon 2?
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Fluppet
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Just so clear/input into the did the drive chain/didnt the drive chain come off debate, Ed told me that the producer picked up the chain off the arena floor and said something to the effect of Gary- heres your drive chain.
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Ok,
Fistly well done to typhoon 2 for winning.
Secondly, I personally dont think the desision would of been right if the points for style control damage and aggresion were the same but the FACT is they are not so typhoon should clearly og one as you all saw the several pieces of storm 2 ed was handed back:)
Thirdly Gary had every right to keep that trophy george, I know that it takes a lot of effort to build a full body spinner, but a petrol one as well...
any way they worked hard and ok, so you dont think they deserved to win it because the desision was wrong however what ever you think on the final you cant really deniy the fact that they achieved a huge amount during the seventh wars which i believe if worthy of a tropy:)
now i know storm II achieved a hell of a lot too but they atleast had some experiance compared to typhoon 2.
any way, thats what i think
Mike
http://www.omegaman.dsl.pipex.comhttp://www.omegaman.dsl.pipex.com
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
First of all, it seems very likely that the director wanted to continue the battle as if nothing had happened, which is why Typhoon was allowed to spin up.
As for accusing Gary of lying about Typhoons drive chain and weapon motor, if he says that he didnt notice any damage, then I belive him!
Gary Simmons, I strongly think that you should appoligize to him.
As for the decision, remember that the fight was edited and that the judges saw a lot more than we did. So if they say that Typhoon had more style, then who are we to argue?
As for the damage, the judges inspected the robots far closer than what youve done. So if they say there was less damage to Typhoon, I belive them!
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Jayne was stupid like we care even if she does take an interest you get paid to do it... :roll:
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Just to respond to a few points (here I go again):
Christian: Regarding spinning up, I can see that the decision could have been made to try to carry on as if T2 hadnt hit the wall. Nonetheless, T2 *did* hit the wall, and I feel that permitting it to spin up afterwards was unfair on its opponents. My opinion of the directors decision, no reflection on any of the competitors.
Regarding the chain, I have to agree that Gary Ss post perhaps had the wrong tone. Presumably the chain in question was from elsewhere - Id be interested to know from where (although I believe Gary when he says it wasnt from Typhoon). Typhoon would have been mobile even if it had thrown a chain, of course, because the drive train is redundant.
I believe Gary if he says Typhoon was not significantly damaged (although Ill be very surprised if its not slightly dented here and there, or bent a tooth, and if nothings been a bit strained). Im happy to admit that Storm apparently sustained greater damage, although that damage seemed also to be pretty superficial (the armour plate looked intact, just detached, and the rest of the robot was fine). As Ive said, I feel Ed would have done better towards the end of the fight by concentrating on pitting Typhoon rather than trying to break it. My point wasnt that I know better than the judges whether theres any damage, just from looking at a quick bit of TV coverage compared to their direct inspection. Im not claiming that I saw damage they didnt, and Im certainly not claiming that Gary wouldnt know (nor, as Gary S seems to be implying, that Gary knew and kept quiet), Im just suggesting that Ive never particularly trusted the, er, judgement of the panel of judges used by Mentorn. My opinion, and partly tempered by show editing, but theyve clearly been known to make mistakes in the past. Funny how Ive never disagreed with a judges decision at Debenham...
I suspect style is highly subjective, and if the judges want to decree Typhoon the winner in that category then thats their prerogative, but I was just making the point that I cant see how they reached that decision. Its not clear to me that, unless something incredibly stylish happened and was edited out, anything Typhoon did could be counted as stylish; maybe Storm lost points for hitting the wall (under Typhoon) so often, but I think in addition to exemplary control, Ed showed off all the tactics and capabilities of his robot much better. Unless you get points for painting rings on your robot and turning up in uniform? I dont know, and its not my place to dispute it, but I *am* curious.
The reason I was picking up on that, Mike, was that although I agree Typhoon was (apparently) ahead on damage, and I dont dispute that damage should be weighted more highly than the other categories, I felt that Storm was massively ahead on the other three categories. If, somehow, the style decision went to Typhoon and the others were as close as the judges seemed to be making out during the repairs then fair enough that the weighting from the damage should carry it. But unless the TV footage is grossly unrepresentative (and there was a lot of it for much to have been cut) I happen to disagree with them.
Also, Mike, Im not sure that Id be arguing that Typhoon particularly deserves it solely on the strength of achievement compared with their lack of experience. Bear in mind that variants of Typhoon have been around for several years now, and that they have a large group of people backing them; Storm on the other hand was completely rebuilt for this tournament, the pre-rebuild appearance was their first at a televised event, and the original Storm was also relatively recent. Its true that team Storm have had some live event experience which the Typhoon team havent, but not with the robot in its current form. Im not suggesting that Typhoon 2 isnt a great and laudable achievement, but I wouldnt suggest that its so much more of one than Storm 2. Ed and Gary have both been valuable and vocal on these fora for some time, and I wouldnt class either as a novice - certainly not in comparison to myself.
And yes, Jayne is and always has been (IMHO) an unmitigated disaster. I give her a small amount of credit for apparently starting to care by the end of the programme, but that the director felt the need to show this fact just highlights how much the whole event was passing her by at the beginning (glazed expression). Shes been another Carmen, but probably with less of a viewing figure draw for dirty old men (and maybe a slightly less detrimental effect on the people shes trying to interview).
End rant, again. :-)
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Fluppet
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
...does that make me a dirty old man? lol
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Mmmmm... fair point, fair point
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
...not Jayne, I dont like her. Carmen Electra or on Robot Wars scale Julia Reed.
Let us not go off topic. Back to the matter at hand...
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
*Not* at hand, please. Keep them where we can see them.
(Expecting the admin to pull this and send me a snotty message, but hey.)
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Fluppet
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
I think the decision was fair, based on the following points.
1) Typhoon probably won style beause of the way their blows were bouncing both machines around. Judging from Mutes self wronging winning style, style seems to be how visually impressive a robot is when it struts its stuff.
2) Storm 2 DID receive all due points for their aggression and control. This is the part no-one seems to be mentioning. The Damage shouldnt count as much because Typhoon was on the defensive argument is... Well, rubbish. Thats why damage and aggresion are two seperate scores. Damage is damage, no matter how it gets caused.
3) OK, so Typhoon probably received internal damage from being shoved around. But if you think Storm 2 took absolutely no internal damage from being hit so hard they spun around the arena, you have another think coming. On the other hand, only Storm 2 took damage that was any greater than dents and scratches. And panel aside, dont forget Storm 2 took a lot of blows to other body parts. They probably had more dents and slashes that we didnt see.
4) And finally. Lets assume Aggression, Style and Control are worth one point each while Damage is worth 2. Storm 2 would have 2 points while Typhoon had 3. Theres no contraversy, just mathematics.
/rant
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
right, let me set a few things straight here....
the whole chain thing. Well one of our drive chains did come off at the end of the fight unknown to us. This was due to us hitting the steel girder in the previous match against XT. The force actually took a large chunk of rubber out of one wheel, took the chain off and warped our wheel box. This was entirely self enflicked and we didnt have enough time to check the alignment of the cogs on the wheels before the final (we didnt realise about the warped wheelbox until we got home). I have probably just opened a can of worms but that is the truth. It came off in the final again because of the unalignment of the cogs. This didnt however affect my driving as typhoon 2 is split into 2 sub systems and hense it can lose half the entire robot chassis so to speak and still keep running perfectly normally. This is the reason for neither us nor the judges picking up on the drive chain.
Our weapon was still working normally, and there were no problems with that.
I knew as soon as we won that the decision was going to cause a lot of contraversy on this forum and so i decided from then to try and keep out of any slagging matches and just tell the facts as i saw them. It is very easy to say that we should have given back the trophy and title but personnally I think that the fight was very evenly matched and it was never going to be a clear win for either. A robot designed to give out punishment vs one designed to take it.
During the last 20 seconds of the fight i seen the panel starting to come loose and hense from then i didnt bother about dodging around trying to spin, i just concentrated a continual ramming into the panel in the hope that something would happen and it did.
I personnally would like to have seen the judges scores for each thing and seen how close we really were.
When it comes to live events, we are considering entering the feather weight and bring typhoon 2 along for static displays, however currently upgrades are being completed on both.
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
I hate to use the c word that Craig Charles uses so much, but Robot Wars has always, and will always be a sport open to dispute and argument.
There will always be decisions that, for one reason or another, will be open to criticism, and the competitors can do NOTHING about it. All they can do is to to accept the judgement with as much good sportsmanship as they can manage - and Gary and Ed have both shown they are good sports. I hope there will be a rematch at some point, and a clear and unambiguous outcome - either way!
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Well put! Both Gary and Ed have accepted the fact that Typhoon won, so why should it be so difficult for the rest of us?
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
thanks gary for sayng a chain came off and christian I strongly think you should apologise to me. its as simple as if gary and the team knew the chain came off before the deciscion then its poor sportsmanship that they accepted the prize on the basis they took no damage and that they stood there without saying a word. if they didnt know before getting the prize then i guess theres nowt they could have done
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Why should I appologize to you? Im not the one who accused Gary of lying. Have you missed this part?
Well one of our drive chains did come of at the end of the fight unknown to us.
As Typhoons drive train is very redundant, he simply didnt notice this. You should get your facts straight before you accuse anyone of lying!
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
my facts are straight christian people were suggesting i was the only person to spot this on tv and that i was making it up i only meant that i felt you should apologise for being so hard on me after all gary only seems to have admitted the damage when pushed. perhaps gary can answer my question and then we will know if they could have said something. did they know before they got back to their robot after the fight that the chain had come off
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
I never said that you had made up the part about the lost chain, that was someone else. I only said that you shouldnt have accused Gary of lying about it.
Typhoons drive train is quite redundant, so its very likely that he didnt notice this. If he says that he didnt know about the missing chain, then I belive him.
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Tempers seem to be running a bit high, and since Ive sounded accusatory above I want to defuse a bit of my side of the argument. Im going to have to be a bit verbose (even by my standards) to try not to mis-speak, so my apologies in advance. Ill start with a response to Franks response to my post.
So, Frank: style wise, I hear what you say. I still think Storm put on the better show, but since Mentorn seem to have a dislike of shove-bots maybe their opinion is different. All I can say is that I would have judged it differently, at least on the screened footage (which I gather from another thread may not quite have been representative). Id have judged it *so* differently that I was astonished that they would disagree. Thats the only reason I was seeking clarification.
Regarding my suggestion that Storms damage should score less because it was self inflicted... youre absolutely right, I was talking unmitigated garbage, and I apologise unreservedly. On occasion Im a big (or at least, fat) enough man to admit it. :-)
For Storm/Typhoon each taking damage, I should have clarified what I was saying. Pending (at the time) information about drive train damage, I happily conceded that Storm apparently took more damage, and most definitely had a few dings out of it besides the missing panel. I was only suggesting that Craigs claim that Typhoon was completely undamaged seemed unlikely, and indicating that I didnt entirely trust the judgement of the judges based on their past record. As it happens, they apparently didnt notice a missing drive chain (Gary was in no position to indicate one way or the other - Im just talking about the judges here), so I reserve my right to doubt their abilities.
So for the maths, that was how I assumed the scores break down too - its just that I would have scored Storm ahead on style. Even with the weighting for damage, Id have scored only a smallish amount of damage to T2 and the other categories significantly to Storm. Only on TV coverage, of course. Im not saying I have a right to be a judge, and Im not saying that Ed should take legal recourse for anything. :-) My posts here are purely to express an opinion and to try to gain understanding.
Gary - thank you for clearing up the confusion about the chain, and for comporting yourself so well under the trial of this forum! Well done Gary S for spotting it, but I still think youre a bit out of order in accusing Gary (C) of any skullduggery, or at least in suggesting that there is a significant possibility that his behaviour was less than honourable - theres no evidence of that. The judges should have spotted it (maybe they did, and didnt pass the information on to Craig) but if they didnt then thats not Garys problem. I dont want us to end up with another Razer/Tornado situation with accusations flying around (and with no evidence on any of the situations myself). The roboteering community isnt large enough that we should have teams falling out over misunderstandings.
Incidentally, credit is due to Gary for actively targeting the loose panel. The TV footage only really showed Storm attacking Typhoon (although I guess ensuring that theres a particular point of impact is about the best you can do anyway with a large speed difference between robots), so that implies that the footage was, as reported elsewhere, not entirely fair to T2, and that Gary deserves more control/aggression points that I gave him credit for. (That said, driving yourself into the wall is minus quite a lot...) As Ive said before, I felt Eds strategy should have been different at the end of this fight, and he paid for it. Not that I would expect for a moment to be able to do nearly so well behind the controls - just picking on (perceived) imperfections as I try to learn.
Richard: agreed wholeheartedly. This *was* a controversial fight, and I think its instructive to get everyones views on it - and I reserve the right to express my own opinions. Im obviously not stating that Im in any way right - the judges decision is final, and for all the ranting Gary is indubitably the rightful holder of the title (so I agree, Christian). I dont think, so long as the manner of the discussion is clinical and not one which casts aspersions about the teams, that theres any harm in a friendly debate. Unfortunately its always going to appear that Gary - as the holder of the title - is being criticised if someone feels that he shouldnt have won the title. I hope Gary is big enough to accept the discussion without feeling in any way offended by it; all evidence is that he is, but I want to make it clear here that nobody should feel attacked by my postings.
Both Gary and Ed have always behaved impeccably on these fora, and have continued to do so regarding this contest. Im sorry if my opinions about this decision reflect in any way badly on Gary - mind you, anyone taking my viewpoint with more than a pinch of salt in comparison with Garys spotless record are obviously too delusional to listen to in the first place. :-)
Let me restate this in order to appeal even to that minority: I have not the slightest problem with either of the teams regarding this final (or, with the exception of extra damage to Atomic for which Gary has already apologised, for any other fight).
I was surprised by - and wanted to learn about - the decision of the judges, and reserve the right to be a little accusatory if I cant be persuaded of their decision. (As it happens, I can vaguely see how they got it, but from the shown footage I happen to disagree - and I dont have to like it, or hold a high opinion of their judgement because of it.) I also think the fight was influenced in an unfair manner by the (presumably) directorial decisions regarding post-arena damage behaviour and the noninvolvement of the house robots. None of these factors are in any way under the control of the competitors.
So, again, congratulations to Gary - and I look forward to seeing the feathers running. And, of course, to a rematch in the future.
Phew. All still friends? :-)
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Fluppet
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Im glad that you have all taken the chain coming off so well as i was in two minds before making that post as i didnt want to give people more attack each other about etc but I thought that everyone here as loyal veiwers of robotic combat were entitled to know.
I think we can all agree that it was a contraversial final but then it wouldnt be robot wars without one!
I would be up for a rematch with storm 2, especially with some of the upgrades we have planned! Although as usual with us being in the military and all we have to keep them quiet at the moment.
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
:-) I think you can trust at least half of us to deal with the facts in the appropriate manner, and to shout down the at most half of us who dont! Big hand for bracing yourself and coming clean, if you were expecting yet more criticism.
Dont suppose youre willing to share some of your technology for shock-proofing, now weve seen the robot naked? Obviously your secret improvements are going to make it all obsolete... Otherwise I can see an evening poring over a video frame by frame. :-)
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Fluppet
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A review of a weird annihilator. Woot anyway.
Storm II vs Tornado
Re comment on dodgy editing : Yes there was some dodgy editing. Refbot pressed the pit release button, we had Tornado on the scoop down at the roboteer end of the arena, and on seeing what was going on - I scooted them down and straight into the pit. The audience cheered (as did we), but then the pit was raised back up again, and Tornado drove out.
Storm II vs Typhoon
1) Could we reach Typhoon before spin up ?
Yes we could have done easily. However chose as a tactic to stalk them around the arena, moving in for a high speed hit when we chose. Why ? Because we knew it was unlikley Typhoon could do enough damage to stop us. We were right. There was no need to hit Typhoon unless we wanted to. This was a tactical call. The plan was to deliver Typhoon to the house robots (specifically Matilda). However every time we took them to a HR, the HRs backed off.
2) Did a chain come off Typhoon ?
Yes it did, and yes Gary was aware of it (Im uncertian as to why he may have said otherwise). You could see it in the footage on TV. At the end it was picked up by Chris Reynolds in the arena, we all spotted it from the interview booth whilst waiting for the judges deciscion. How they failed to see it is unknown.
3) What broke on Storm II
Each front scoop panel has fixings on either side. Some of these sheared and 2 welds cracked at the end of the fight causing the panel to come loose. This in itself didnt give us any concern as the space under the scoop is a sacrificial void anyway. Theres nothing underneath.
4) What internal damage was there to Storm II
None. The only damage was the panel.
5) What damage did Typhoon take ?
Gary has since confirmed in an MSN convo that Typhoon had damage to its freewheel that allows it to spin up the weapon and were given time during the break to work on it to get it going again so they could spin up. We were offered the chance to work on Storm II, but we declined, as we didnt believe it was in the spirit of the competition. They lost a drive chain from one of their wheels during the fight - Gary said one of their wheel pods had been damaged before during the fight with XT (during which they also threw a chain). I do not know why neither of these two bits of damage (unstartable weapon and damage to drive) were not taken into account. Typhoon had overheated inside and as a result the engine kept stalling.
6) What about Typhoon hitting the wall ?
Yes it seemed unfair to allow Typhoon to spin up to the speed they were going before hitting the wall. After all, it was their fault they hit it, and the fact it broke wouldnt change the fact that if it hadnt, they still would have slowed down. We were uncertian as to why they were allowed to spin up for the sake of continuity when the fight had been stopped in the footage anyway.
7) Franks if you think Storm 2 took absolutely no internal damage from being hit so hard they spun around the arena, you have another thing coming comment.
There was no internal damage to Storm II. Anyone there at the time will back this up. We did not take any hits from Typhoon anywhere other than that front plate.
8) What you didnt see
In our attempt to get the house robots to attack Typhoon we repeatedly held Typhoon up in the air in at least 2 of the CPZ for 30 seconds a time. On one occasion Matilda simply drove away out of the CPZ, and on another occasion no house robots came to the CPZ that we were in. Other than that what you saw was almost exactly as it appeared and if you time the footage that becomes apparent. This fight didnt suffer from heavy editing other than that.
Our view
The way we saw it was, we had lost a single body panel. Typhoon had suffered material damage to their drive system, and their weapon was inoperable (for a number of reasons) and not running for much of the fight. Our belief was that this would hold us in good stead. We believed that the judges would rate the drive/weapon affecting damage beyond the panel that came off Storm II. We were confident we had won in Control, Aggression and Style without question.
After chatting to the judges at the end, it became clear that they never looked under the lid and soley went on the external damage. The chain that was recovered from the arena from Typhoon never made it to the judges. We got an apology from the crew, director, producer and judges who realised the mistake, but we were past the point of no return at that point.
As we said at the top of this thread however, a win is a win. Few people on the day agreed with it, and we all felt awful standing up there with Gary holding the trophy and all we could here was booing.
Typhoon got the deciscion. Whether it was right or not is going to be debated for months I suspect, but theres nothing anyone can do to change it now.
On the note of welding, following my comment of Im going to learn to weld were happy to welcome on board SIP as a major sponsor for 2004, who are going to teach us to weld ! More on that later.
Roll on the World Championships - and if Typhoon ever fancy a rematch, they know where to find us !
Ed and Tim
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com