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Mario, this is what the forum and meetings like the AGM are for.
Leo, we have not publicised the agenda previously and I dont personnally believe there was reason to publicise this agenda either. It was an internal document so that those attending the meeting knew what was what. I am pretty sure that in future we will be publishing the agenda as it seems quite clear that that is what many want.
What many want is clarity, communication.
Look, my 2 cents on this matter:
When something is published that shouldnt, and is rectified, and then the publisher gets threatened anyway, that is a problem. Of course I dont know all of it, but that is what a forum is for... c-o-m-m-u-n-i-c-a-t-i-o-n. That sort of tends to seems to be able to maybe clear things up. A forum is a meeting place, a spot where people gather and talk. Sometimes the talk isnt nice, but that is just the way people are.
And when people feel attacked by comments on a forum they should defend themselves with comments in return, not with legal action. Maybe its my Dutch heritage, but it does help to talk about stuff in order to get it sorted out to satisfaction.
And that is what bothers me, personally, about this affair.
Actually the legal mumbojumbo was a completely seperate matter to the publishing of documents.
And then of course there is talking and arguing... normally arguements get no where. Thats why we do things like get together and talk.
im sorry to say this but what i hate about this place is that their are people who think they know it all who once given any slight power start throwing their weight around to suit themselves and turn anything they dont like around, everything is supposed to be done for the future of the sport when any things change or decisions are made it is done to suit certain little groups. i have been on loads of forums from car enthusiast clubs etc..... and to me this compared is a bit of a farce, the arguements, backstabbing and so on you will always get (fair enough) but this is getting ridiculous. its only due to my passion for the hobby why i still come on here, this is a public forum and i am voicing my opinion from someone who cares and can clearly see that i feel is a sport on a downward spiral with all these new rule proposals and so on, if these things were for the good of the sport then why is their so many annoyed people and arguements going on. if you need any examples just read through posts from the last couple of months.
im saying this cos i care and not to bring anything into dispute.
just take 5 and think about a newbee who has just joined the forum wanting to get into robots, and reading into these posts over the last few weeks, i think its enough to scare them off.
if you want to secure the future of the sport i thing their are more things to prioritize such as helping organizers run more spinner events, or making certain big events more special cos im sorry i dont care what anyone says the majority of crowds like seeing spinners, if you need an example watch any recent videos with a spinner and listen to the crowd,
my next one is crack down on robots being overweight, cos im sorry but i know of overweight robots and in the past i have heard it get laughed off at the scales, when it has been overweight, ive been their and heard it with my own ears so i dont expect emails or pms saying who,what,why,when i have stood their and heard it myself. im not saying it always happens except i have heard it in the past.
next- lets gets these events that are filmed for dvd etc promoted more, help the organizers. i dont have the answers but their are still alot that think the sport stopped when the show ended.
finally, as i said this is my opinion im sure this will now start a big new arguement but hey, its what i have come to expect.
also i have no idea whats gone on, but im guessing something was posted that shouldnt have been made public, im sure this person wasnt doing it out of spite, but if anyone is to blame it is the fra for not making it strictly clear... but this is only if thats what has happened.
(Message edited by ady on October 12, 2007)
Oh look its nearly the 13th soon the FRA executive will have the meeting I€™m sure the members of the executive committee will report to the FRA membership all the points discussed and agreed.
We then can discuss the decisions made by the executive in a mature and sensible way.
Some comments on the other issues: -
Mistakes have been made on all sides in this argument, lets all be big enough to acknowledge this.
With regard to the other forum I hope the misunderstanding regarding the legal status will be sorted and the other forum can start again with due regard for the law or whatever the problem was.
With regard to the weight issue I don€™t want to repeat myself so I will just say universal rules in the long term benefit everyone. On the over weight issue I agree with Adrian that 100 Kg is the max for heavies (+/ - 2%) sorry a rule is a rule, excluding gas naturally!!!!!!!!
But lastly I must stress again, please EVERY ONE TRY TO KEEP CALM.
Well Im a newbie, and it all seems a bit odd. Were all so friendly (admittedly a smaller group) on http://www.robotwars101.org/phpBB/http://www.robotwars101.org/phpBB/ that its a bit of a shock to hear about legal action being taken!!! Come one, just sort it out amongst yourselves, and (although this sounds like it might be a big jump for some) stop being so darned secretive about everything. Just post draft rules and stuff, if youre on the side of right then people will go with what youre trying to do. Treat people like adults, a lot of us here (not me admittedly) have important responsible jobs and are capable of being objective. And lastly (and in complete agreement with Craig) be calm.
Simon
Kane Aston, still my question is, how can you ,as a rep approve a document if your electors cant give their view?
Guessing wont do Im afraid
Kane ive been in your region uptil august, also im an original member of the FRA and you norr your predasesor have ever ask me as a memeber of you region what my opinion is, it is your job to find out the opinion of the people u represent, as it was my job to represent the views and opinions of the antweigths while i was Antweight FRA rep.
Mario, this is what the forum and meetings like the AGM are for.
Leo, we have not publicised the agenda previously and I dont personnally believe there was reason to publicise this agenda either. It was an internal document so that those attending the meeting knew what was what. I am pretty sure that in future we will be publishing the agenda as it seems quite clear that that is what many want.
Kane Aston. I agree that the forum and the meetings are meant to ironing out bugs, difficulties and problems with potential new rules.
Why all the fuss about the linked AGM 17 proposals?
There is absolutely nothing in them that couldnt be discussed and agreed upon. Why keeping this agenda hidden from the non rep members?
As I mentioned before. Tims application to test the A123s was a serious mistake, as he never applied for that. KOS did.... and he isnt mentioned. Those things could be ironed out in a open forum discussion.
But what we see now is the fact certain people are using legalese to justify their actions keeping the agenda from the members.
Problem is, once is a coincidence. Twice suspicious. Trice, fecal matter hitting an air displacement device.
My main issue. Compared to the old Mentorn Rules the FRA rules didnt change much, except wording.
Real changes over the years.
Battery technology. LiPo is limited to feathers. And the newer inherently safer Lithiumnanoferrophosphate is still, after 3 years of real life experience, in debate. Only certain people can test them.
Limited CO2 consumable. 2 KG of CO2 is Free.
With a new rule pending that even strips those 2 kg. Forgetting the fact that to store CO2 you need a very heavy tank, what cant be part of your robot. In effect disadvantaging CO2 users. When everybody else goes in @100 kg and comes out 100kg CO2 users are mandated to put in 3 to 10 kg of storage bottle , to come out at 98 to 94 kg.
The current rule is a useable middle path.
Hydraulics. Pressure was raised. The reasoning behind it modern hydraulics are build to withstand 4000 psi and better. (REMOVED BANNED WORD). Commercial hydraulics come in different flavors. Tailgate lifters operate normaly at 160-180 bar, with some dropping to 120 and someraise above 200. And yes, I can prove this. Im a goddamned certified taillifter expert of a certain brand.
Also, Enerpack brigdemoving lifters can achive pressures over 700 bar safely. Perfectly commercialy available.
A modern minidigger operates at 350 bar, with a 50 hp 4 cylinder diesel powering a swashplate plunger pump.(as what Razer used.)
Power Led. Wow, we have a possible means to see if a robot is powered.
(Message edited by maddox on October 13, 2007)
(Message edited by big_nipper on October 14, 2007)
For those who dont visit Facebook, the following is a posting of Dave Lang there. I hope people wont be angry about me doing so but I think its important.
Dave Lang (Plymouth) replied to Sams post on Oct 11, 2007 at 5:42 AM
Its not the FRA threatening, its a certain member of it. The documents weren,t copyrighted (there was no copyright message on them anywhere) but I was told that they were copyrighted but they were not marked as such (yeah, odd)
I was not told to keep them private but I was asked to remove the AGM minutes because they were not released (which I did straight away), and I also moved the agenda in to the backroom so that no public could see it (the backroom being another thing which this person hates)
I was also asked to remove the agenda, which i refused to do because I wanted the people in my area to be able to read and comment on them before the meeting.
Yesterday I was demanded to remove the agenda. I have no idea why. Theres nothing that bad in it, and its posting on the robotforum actually brought up some varied and interesting discussions on the FRA forum.
I was also threatened with legal action regarding some of the content of the postings. I did actually edit some of the postings to reomve any names but apparently this was not enough. I was told in no uncertain terms that if anything got put on the forum which this person found to be making them look bad then I personally would be sued for damages.
Its really p**sing me off so I decided to quit the FRA for good. Ive deleted my FRA account, closed the robotforum and resigned as rep for good. All this is because of one person. Its been making me ill. Ive had a headache for the past 2 days because of this as its causing me so much stress.
Message from Dave Lang:
In response to the posting from Andy Kane:
I believe that Dave may have taken the view that it was easier to close the site than to censor the written content, ie do the exact opposite of why the site was set up for in the first place
The reason I closed the robotforum site was because of the following quote I received in an e-mail from Andy Kane this week...
Quote:
To day I stopped an actual solicitors letter heading your way from one of our members (not me), but have only managed to delay it.
The member has asked me to relay a message to you and that is If ever the robot forum appears in an open working form on the internet again, the start of legal action against you will be automatic
This was the reason that the forum was taken offline and not because I do not want to sensor postings. Tonight I have put the robotforum back online and will keep an eye on any postings (as much as I can). Anyone using it will need to read the rules for the forum (a link from the main screen). If anyone has any problems with any of the postings then there is a report this posting button on the top of EVERY post. If you would like a posting removed, simply click the report this post button and an e-mail will be sent to all of the moderators then the posting can be dealt with swiftly and easily.
Note: The agenda has been removed from the robotforum as requested, and any postings amended/deleted.
Reporting of posts is the same on the robotforum as on most forums on the internet.
Regards
Dave Lang
PS: Apologies from having to post from Debbies account. I have deleted my FRA account in protest to the treatment I have received over the robotforum.