Printable View
MDF is probably the worst wood for dust and breathing it. I have been watching this thread and the sound of a wooden class is great but limiting it to mdf in my opinion is a bad call. Also if your making it out of wood then the only metals that should be used are component metals. Building a metal chassis and just using wood for armour would detract from the wooden class.
Thanks everyone for your input!
This is exactly the short of issue we need t sort out. Unfortunately there are several mixed opinions on some issues, which we should bring to light.
Current consensus is moving towards all wood then?
I agree with PJ-27 that MDF would make the best base for building for a level playing field. I see no problem with ply as an alternative as suggested by Relentless. A rule that allows any wood will simply encourage blocks of Oak and railway sleepers to dominate and that would be little better than an arena full of 'steel box' rambots insofar as excitement is concerned and therefore not in the spirit of this class. However, as said earlier, I feel it is essential not to restrict the use of metal or plastics for the chassis for protection of R/C, drive motors and ESC etc.
Given that its natural to build to the limit of the rules and given that this 'fun class' is intended to attract newcomers, irrespective of what materials are eventually specified, the rules need to ensure that in the build, there is no mechanical strength advantages by simply choosing a harder wood or increasing thickness of armouring to survive a battle. A reasonably level playing field in these areas is IMO essential if this class is to be a success.
As spinners are ruled out, I do not see a real problem with dust, even should slow spinners be allowed.
Hoppy
The threat of dust is more to do with the fabrication of the robot. Harder wood would be ideal for protection of components.
I agree about the threat of dust being more to do with the fabrication. I always use a face mask when cutting MDF.
Maybe a compromise for the chassis would be just to allow the electronics to be protected in a metal enclosure(s) affixed to a plastic or timber base plate. A softwood chassis could then be formed around the base plate to affix armour and provide a anchor for weapons. This would avoid the need to seek out hard woods which even in small amounts are costly nowadays.
Hoppy
Jesus, I thought we had sorted out this debate a while back! Why stiffle creation by saying you can only use crap woods?
Make them entirely out of wood, any wood, if you find some scrap oak then good for you, if you can't then layer up the ply or MDF. It weighs bugger all and you could easily have 2 inch armour all around your electronics.
Weapon wise, everything should have come from wood working tools originally. Modify them to suit, use a chisel as the basis for an axe, use chainsaw chains and saw blades.
With these two rules here and the others of the featherweight category it gives the biggest amount of inovation you could have with this class. Stiffle it too much and most won't bother.
Why stop at wood! Let's also allow metal, wouldn't want to stiffle people's innovation.
I've heard Titanium and Hardox are good......
I'm being facetious by the way.
Ok, maybe opening up to all woods is the way to go, but it does create issues with people just opening their wallets and buying the best, strongest and lightest wood they can.
On the other hand I think BOW should be able to run, and I like the idea of people using scrap wood they happen upon (how very Bitza!)
Hopefully their will be a nice even trade off of weight to strength with wood. For instance Oak is strong but heavy....
I think use any wood, using bits of 2 by 4 is an easy way of building it as its pre-cut. And different people have access to different bits of wood, personally I have some some nice thick pieces of wood designed to go above a door.
Also I think there is no harm in a metal interior to protect the electronics as I think the reason to go with wood is so the armour gets ripped up and destroyed which looks amazing, not to have your internals destroyed which is devistateing. That also means you can have it very thick, infact the thicker the better as it will never need replacing so will look really beaten up and means you can put it in with any spinner not just wooden ones.
OK, lets go with all woods with option on metal or plastic baseplate / chassis to protect electronics and drive motors.
Hoppy
so what's to stop me strapping some wooden armour to the outside of boner or 540 and entering that?
Having read all this thread, my understanding is that this class is primarily to give newcomers a chance to enter a very cheaply built robot with a weapon(s) that can at the same time entertain the audience by being fairly easy to destruct and inexpensive to repair for the builder. Any existing bot could be timber clad within the weight limit but this rather defeats the purpose and spirit of this class, especially if it has a really powerful weapon that can simply take-out cheaply built timber bots as soon as they move! IMO it would look rather stupid if all its tough metal or plastic under armour was revealed intact after all the wood was ripped-off. A wooden bot reduced to its chassis will look like a defeated bot.
Hoppy
The featherweights used to be touted as the best way to start up in the hobby, then the beetleweights were. Both classes have been taken to the extremes. There is no way that you can stop others from entering a weight class with more experience.
Quote:
lets go with all woods with option on metal or plastic baseplate / chassis
Contradiction much?Quote:
IMO it would look rather stupid if all its tough metal or plastic under armour was revealed intact after all the wood was ripped-off
I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm playing devils advocate here to try and weed out the issues with the ruleset that has yet to be agreed. If you make wood the only build material then it's very easy to govern whereas if you specify that part of the robot can be metal then where does that stop? If you want to protect your motors and speed controllers then model RC cars might be a better hobby.
I'd be quite happy having all my electronics in a wooden box because it would be far inside the robot.
In terms of any metal, I think we should. Stick with the original idea of metal for weapons only. I am considering a Rex's robot challenge machine but with wooden armour support blocks, but a metal flipper plate and a saw in the back. Objections?
BTW Gary, I maintain ants are the easiest way to get into robots, not feathers or beetles.
Contradiction much?Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoon_driver
[/quote:lsgurngt]
No contradiction. Hoppy said metal or plastic 'base plate/chassis' not 'armour'. But you have a point there must be a clear destinction between the two.
You could have a metal base plate to mount all your parts on and then everything else as wood. And since a base plate's are normally 12-15mm HDPE or if you are lucky 5mm Ti it will offer no side protection that a dedicated internal metal chassis would.
As Eventorizon points out, I'm talking about an option for just a plastic or metal chassis / baseplate, not a metal framework / superstructure to which is affixed timber armouring, so not a contradiction as I see it. Having a tough and resilient chassis / base plate is helpful with a heavy bot, I cannot see how a quick pre-fight inspection cannot easily establish that a non wooden superstructure / framework is in place.
Hoppy
In that case I will just go and make a wooden box for 540. It has no substructure and everything is bolted to a 5mm ti plate.
I've had a look at this and I personally would like too see metal chassis with wood armour as they will look fantastic once their destroyed but you can have panels cut ready too bolt on and go again were as a full wooden construction you would have too Basiclly build it again, makes it all a lot easier on the roboteers but if someone wants too enter a full wood bot then we shouldn't stop them
As an idea there could be both a percentage rule (e.g. only 30% by mass plastic and/or metal) and a power limit (say 400W, brushed only) which would have to be adhered to 'in good faith' but with voting carried out over permissibility of suspect machines. That may be a little tricky to implement but ought to cover more ground than the other suggestions so far.
30%? I'm still golden with 540. Doing a very rough back of the fag packet sum the base only weighs a couple kilo.
i'm using this as a point, ignore the metal, it's meant to be a WOODEN class.
why is f_a_g banned on here?!
The USA has a 'Sportsman' class (I think that's what it's called) where it has limitations on certains specs (RPMs, brushless tech, materials) so maybe that would be worth looking into.
For the record BitzaWood is all MDF, the only metal is the blades, the shaft on which they spin, the weapon motor mounting plate and a piece under the Li-Po. Even the spacer on the weapon pulley is wood!
It's constructed with wood screws and now that I think about it the front panel is some sort of veneer (hhhhmmm) not MDF.
No brushless tech, and all off the shelf parts (mostly eBay!)
typhoon_ driver wrote - In that case I will just go and make a wooden box for 540. It has no substructure and everything is bolted to a 5mm ti plate.
Sounds good and may allow other builders to use an existing base-plate as a start for a wooden bot.
Hoppy
See what you mean Gary, I had been doing a few sums in my head about drill gearbox masses etc which led me to the 30%, exclude mechanical parts and just do a frame percentage then 10% might cut it.
Perhaps drive limited to 36mm can motors (up to speed 600)? Just thinking of how to disallow 540 now to be honest =p
Ewan that is my point exactly. I don't want to enter 540 with a wooden cover but with the rule set recently proposed I could and it would be the same as any other robot fight then but I would have a huge advantage over say bitzawood.
This is why I keep saying, keep it simple, with only wood. I like bitza wood and i think that it sums up what the class should be about.
I think all wooden is out in front, so how do we move forward?
Hoppy
Personally don't see any issue at all with all wood. Johnny 2x4 and Block of Wood have both taken hits from the meanest spinners in the game without much hassle for rebuilding. A decent plywood baseplate won't have the flexibility of an HDPE equivalent but it'll be plenty strong enough. I used a piece of 1cm thick cheap ply for mounting a 33cc engine once, and it took it without a problem (until the project was stolen at least).
There is no structural loss to keeping the whole machine wooden. I don't see the point in allowing other materials when the result would be a featherweight with wooden sides. Why would anyone bother? In reality, how much harder is it to cut 10mm HDPE over 40mm thick wood of any sort? I'd say if anything it might be easier.
As far as I am concerned, this is a wooden robot class, and it should be all wood. Plus, people are thinking of ease of repair, how much REAL damage is a wooden box knocking into another wooden box going to do?
I believe there is an argument for metal chassis and bolt on wood to fulfill the 'Easy re-build' requirement.
But to be honest it shouldn't be a massive issue, plus I think wood can fail to a massive degree and still maintain some shape and use, which just looks awesome!
I believe the possibility of having a metal box in the heart of the robot to house expensive things is a possibilty, but no more metal beyond this.
To be honest you can make the walls of your bot so thick with wood (due to ti being so light) that I wouldn't worry.
BitzaWood is all wood and the electronics are well out of harms way. Currently weighs 8.6kgs, so my plan is to take the current all wood bot as my 'chassis' and then have bolt on ablative wooden armour, that I can easily be replaced after each round.
No metal, fulfills the easy re-build option, and everything's safe.
No metal beyond the electronics box with the exception of the weapon and screws (hot glued robots, that would be a laugh :))
Hot glue allowed Tormenta to do 5 battles after its meeting with NST! Brilliant stuff, haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by razerdave
I know I have said it before but 36mm of MDF on 3 sides of our wooden machine and an 18mm MDF base. It will take a long time to cut through that since we are not going to be getting a constant cutting action. If people do get through then you have the Robochallenge wheels, much tougher! I agree with no brushless tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ-27
If we go for no metal at all besides a protective electronics box then me and Bitzawood would be out cos we are both using screw-in threaded inserts. they don't add any strength to the wood so they should be allowed IMO.
Bolts, Nuts, Screws, Inserts should all be fine. And rather than using say angle Ali to bolt to just bolt into a square piece of wood. That will re-enforce your corners nicely!
So would this mean use of metal angle brackets/frame members is disallowed- only screws and wood to wood joints are permitted?
Thats how I was planning to do it. I do it with HDPE blocks in Hell's Angel because the armour isn't thick enough for a screw through the edge.
It's a challenge gentlemen. That's why I would advocate no metal angle as well as plate and sheet. Bolts, screws, nuts, washers etc are fine. But it makes it far more challenging to have to work out how best to bolt it all together.
And remember wood has a very low relative density so going for some 20mm thick wood planels all over or just regular 2 by 4s would work.
The only metal I believe we should allow should be entirely for the weapon systems and drive systems. so any cogs, gears, pneumatics, motors etc are all good but the structure of the robots and armour etc is wood based and the weaponry should have come from woodwork tools (be they power or hand).
I will agree to a metal box for electronics if people so wish
If its only wood working tools then I can't do my idea. I had planned to have something like the Rex's robot challenge robot that rex himself made with the wiper motor powered lifter. If the flipper was made from a wood panel rather than a metal one, would it be accepted ?
I would also have a damaging weapn, a saw on the back. It would look like a cross between Cassius and Roadblock :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoon_driver
Thats it. :)
I do think the just wood thing is a good concept as it'd spur creativity, the issue is getting all of this into easily understood writing as there'd inevitably be lots of ins and outs over tool permissibility (e.g. a set of chisels angled to the ground would basically be a metal wedge, but would that be allowed?).
Also, what about li-pos? Personally I think they should be allowed on the basis of availability, price and transferability to other projects, but they would probably require a metal box.
wood chisels as ramps etc would be cool. using motors and pneumatics for internal workings should be ok so building a featherweight flipper would be fine. In fact it would add a whole bunch of challenges to get the panels strong enough
I'm the biggest supporter of lipo but i'm not sure that they are appropriate for a wooden bot :uhoh:
I don't think it should be wood working tools only as for spinning weapons you can't use circular saw blades as they shatter and I think the cool thing about wooden armour is it gets destroyed by spinning weapons, as dave says you also can't have lifter.
I think don't limit people's imaginations too much.
I think the shattering circular saws thing has been way too over-hyped.. if you're running spinning discs at all it shouldn't matter one bit if one shatters
The point of going as wood-orientated as possible is to force people to use their imagination! To start allowing things found in normal weight classes is to ultimately reduce creativity. I don't see limitations as limiting imagination at all, I see it as helping it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Max
As I have said, the closer this class gets to standard FW combat the less interesting and attractive it becomes.