Power/failsafe LED

Given the chance Im sure that one of the rules for the challenge would have been.

...Robots must not be capable of self propulsion :P

Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

Thats actually a point worth making..

The price of not restricting the development paths for you guys is, Im afraid, more emphasis on safety.
What has in effect been done is that weve said ok, you can build a silly power spinner, and you can do it with whatever materials and components you want, but in return we want you to fit an indication that the spinner is on and therefore dangerous
The only other way to try and keep things safe is to take the path of Rexs rules, and restrict all the weapons, drive and other such paraphernalia to the point where theyre no longer a threat.

I know which one Id rather see :)

The reason things are moving so fast in the rules of the Featherweight world is that the robots themselves are moving forward in development so fast. I can remember not much more than a year back where most of them were still made of wood!

Anyway
Sam

Mmmmmm Wooden Robots :)

Lol. It does make you think that there was nothing stopping anyone turning up with a vortex 2 years ago. The technology was there. People just seem to build to the standard that exists at the time. If one were to step out of the box and do some kind of reverse hindsite type thing, hmm... anyway, it would be good to see if anyone could jump 2 years into the future, today. The future seems to be dominated by CNC. Certianly, if we look across the pond, the view is very much that you cant expect to get anywhere in the 12 or 30lb class without a CNC/well machined bot. Thankfully we have folks like Ed who have the resources to break ground, and the rest of us can duly follow :). Whilst it is the case that people like Rex build fantastic things for very little, he is an excellent machinist, with a very complete workshop, and access to the kind of scrapyeards that seem to have F1 car parts and honeycomb aluminium, whereas my locals seem to be limited to rusty gates. For the rest of us, it does seem to involve spending more to keep up with the competition. Where will it end? How much are people willing to pay?

Hmm, a bit deep for a friday night, but there we go:-)

Eddy

CNC rulz! And who said we had to pay for it :)

Its not just for the money brigade you know.
A certain Mr Ewan recently did very well with a simple steel chassis. If you make the steel thick enough who needs CNC?

My point is, I agree with Sam, if you are going to build things that are dangerous, you must do it safely. My only worry if the nexr generation of Rexs stuff will not conform to FRA rules, and to comply may be prohibitivly expensive, so we loose dozens of potential members.

All it would take to alleviate my worries is an official FRA e-mail sent to Rex to just inform him of the development of the featherweight class safety requirements (he was after all partly, if not mostly responsible for its explosion!)

I know he doesnt allow spinners, but non spinners are legal. Just because its a lower capability flipper than the current lot doesnt mean they dont need the safety features and I think Rex would be delighted to incorporate out advances in safety into his machines. He is after all a leading figure in making robot combat safer, too safe some may say. Cost is also important to him so Im sure given enough time he can help us in return by coming up with lower cost solutions.

Rex doesnt allow spinners, and prefers cheap machines.
I think Vortex breaks just about every one of his principals doesnt it Ed? :)
and it moves.

Light colour was mentioned and the only conclusion that we came to was to make the light stand out from the robot colour. ie, red robot = non red light. It stands to reason. It has to stick out afterall. Also, non filiament lights are to be used. Such as LEDs. Again, obvious reasons.

The lights are mainly for us arena marshalls so that we can at least have an indication on at least a few robots in the arena so that we decide who will be disarmed first. The lights can play a great part in helping arena staff.

Mike.

Could we have a definitive answer on flashing power lights please? Unless my eyesite is really letting me down the rule in question is

6.8.
All Middleweight, Heavyweight and Superheavyweight Robots must have a light easily visible from the outside of the robot that shows its main power is activated.

We are going in entirely the wrong direction if the currently published rules are embellished by anyone who sees fit to do so.

This doesnt even mention feathers. Having been told and accepted that feathers were to be included I asked for guidance on required specs. Having received no definitive/consistent answers I selected my personal preference of of 10mm red flashing LEDs. I know the cost of changing these is negligible provided I am allowed to run the existing setup until my next parts order goes in, but it is exceedingly annoying when people who failed to answer the initial questions seek to impose new rules that arent even published yet.

Personally I can see little problem with flashing LEDs. They seem to me to be far more easily visible, has anyone else ever tried seeing if there car alarm is on or off on a bright sunny day :) If reliabilty is the perceived issue in my experience they default to non-flashing on mode if the flasher fails.

Anyway rant over my simple question is where does the alleged non-flashing rule originate from and when/where can I expect to see it published and be enforced.

Regards

Tim Jones

Check out thread FRA meeting minutes for clarification on what robots require lights.
Whether they are flashing or not is up to the individual roboteer, but there is a recommended type which is not flashing.

I cant find that one, LOL.

to save all this confusion, people geting anoyed, why doesnt some one just put down the bloody rule on this thread in plain, simple words. And then maybe people will understand them. We are getting send forwards and backwards to find out peices of this rule which seems to me just useless confusion.
Considering i need to put some on my robot Im getting confused and frustrated because it could have been put in it by now, and with such little time before its a nessesity I dont know if i will have time now.

I may just be mistaken and the exact rule somewhere else in plain words, but this thread could have ended a long time ago if people didnt just confuse the matter.
Grant

Good God.... its just an LED. I cant believe that this thread is still going...

My comments - Make it any colour except black (for hopefully obvious reasons) and try not to use flashing ones because half of the time they indicate that the power is off!

As Mike said above, the LEDs help marshalls/EOs choose which robots to disarm first. Isnt it just simpler to fit a standard RED/GREEN/BLUE/YELLOW LED instead of continually debating meaningless points?

Please use a bit of common sense people and help keep your EOs happy because their jobs are hard enough as it is. Fit the LED - even to feathers!

thx then, so as far as im concerned now, just a light to say the robot is turned on?
So i could put one actually on my link so that when its plugged in the light is on, when i remove the link, the light is off?

Grant,
Just read Daniels comments re meaningless points!
Let me put it as simply as I can..An LED..any damn colour you like..preferably not flashing..attached to your ROBOT..also required for feathers..to come on when your link is plugged in..to go off when your link is removed..end of story!!(hopefully)

and visable :)

Ok, clarity is requested (again!) and clarity will be provided, though as suggested above its beyond me where the confusion came from in the first place! :sad:

LED/light fitted in a clearly visible position.

It must come on when the link is inserted, and go off when the link is removed.

Any colour will do, as long as its clearly visable.

Preferred not flashing.

Heavily advised not to be a filament based bulb.

Required on Superheavyweights, Heavyweights,
Middleweights and Featherweights.

Hows that?

Regards
Samuel Jones
FRA Safety Executive (and keeper of all things rules!)

what about lightweights?
;p

Thats an interesting point actually - does anyone actually have a lightweight? I considered making one but figured noone else had one. Makes it easy to win trophies tho :proud:

-- Kev

2 lightweights in an arena, bashing ten bells out of each other would be a lovely thing to see..

Give em a year, the introduction of massive weaponry power, an explosion in numbers turning up at events.. and then we might have to look at the power light situation.

But in answer to your question:

At present no they dont need one :)

Sam

Sam do antweights need them?

May sound stupid but have you seen Militant? A 40,000+rpm blade weighing over 40g thats gotta hurt. Considering a 3mm led and resistor weighs about 0.5g i think antweights should have to have them but what is the current ruleing?

Regards
Ian

MilitAnt has a very fierce weapon. If a LED i necessary for a featherweight pusher, then antweight spinners of that class really should have them?

Just my two pence worth.

Guys.

Id have to take advice on that one from the FRA antweight rep Craig Danby.
At present theyre not required, though we will look into it if theres concerns that need addressing.

Sam

Its fairly obvious whether or not ants are on- they twitch!

sqeeky voice

so lets take out our ear-pieces man......

antweights, the Ant and Dec of the robot world.

I will resist the urge to draw any conclusions based on your viewing habits james :p

I am now selling fully-made LED units for use in robots. This is just an easy was of fitting the new rules from the FRA.
The units are contained within light grey ABS boxes (50mm x 17mm x 35mm).
You can purchase any of these three versions:

1. 10mm Red LED, 5.00
2. 10mm Green LED, 5.00
3. 5mm Blue LED, 7.00 (blue LEDs cost much more than the other standard colours)

All of the above have a 50p p&p charge to anywhere within Europe.

All three versions are packed with the following features:

- All units will run of any voltage from 5-36v (40v peak)
- All units have reverse polarity protection
- All units are virtually immune to electrical noise
- All have easy mounting via two 4mm bolts (included)
-A manual with full installing instructions is included

There is a picture on my profile of the unit.
Can all orders be sent to led@micro-maul.co.uk, please state the colour of LED you wish to have, and Ill send you an address to send cheque/cash/postal-order to.

Cheers, Ewan

i know i may spark up the whole debate about LEDs again but......

In our case i think an LED would actually be a hazard. As most of you know, our robots have the removable link at the end of the flag inserted into the robot. Now I was wondering if an LED would actually be worse for us personnally as if there is anything sticking out the central shaft then the robot is considered live and therefore approached with extreme caution. Whereas the LED could malfunction etc and go out when the flag is in. At that point we would still treat the robot as live and not go near it with caution. We will of course comply with any rules necessary however i was just wondering what peoples thoughts were.

This has been argued to death now. The general consensus seems to be that you shouldnt approach with any less caution just because the LED is off.

As long as you interpret it as:
- LED on means the robot is live
- LED off means nothing, so you must rely on other indications (e.g. the link) to determine the robots status.

Then it doesnt do any harm and can avert some situations where you thought your robot was disabled but wasnt.

As long as you interpret it as:
- LED on means the robot is live
- LED off means nothing, so you must rely on other indications (e.g. the link) to determine the robots status.

Wouldnt this just mean that there is no point in having an LED?
And yes Gary, I can see ALOT of people starting to rely in the LED especially when they are tense and in a rush, Im sure that many people wil start to become just a little bit too complacent.
I sure hope not though for their own sake!
Grant

Grant,

I have been to loads of live events and I have never once seen anyone rely on an LED to determin if the machine is safe or not. The LED is not a Its Safe indicator, it just shows if the main power is on.

If the link aint in your hand then you should assume the bot is still live. The instant you stop respecting your machine it will almost certainly injure you.

As Mike said somewhere above, the LEDs help let the EOs know which bots to disarm first.

No, there definitely is a point in having a warning light... it helps in any situation where you thought the robot was inactive, but wasnt. Disarming robots after a fight is just one example people keep mentioning, there are plenty of other situations where it could help.

On the topic of LEDS - is there any simple way for me to add a LED to my robot which only turns on when my robot has SIGNAL from the TX?

Mr Stu

(Before some people shower me with concerns, i would have 2 LEDS. One to let me know theres power to the robot, and one to let me know if their is signal to the robot. Both would go out when the link is removed.)

sorry i that some people may have misunderstood me.........

basically i was saying i dont believe there is any point in our robots having an LED because of the sheer fact that it can be seen easily if our robots are active due to the fact that the link is at the bottom on the flag, hense anything in the central shaft, means the robot is very dangerous, something not there, safe. This is how we have always treated our robots. We will of course fit an LED because of the rule however we feel that on our robots it isnt especially needed due the specific nature of its design.

Stu, trim a spare channel on the tx to full, add a servo and a microswitch on the bot?

You could just connect a led & resistor on one of the channels, this will blink (too fast for you to see) if SIGNAL, off otherwise.
But, this is likely not what you want, since it will only show if there is a signal, or not, not if your failsafe has kicked in properly.

EDIT: Because of the previous post, am I to belive you have a PCM system? If so, it will obviosly not work.

Gary, why not put a PP3 pattery in the link with an led attached. it never switches off, but as you are physically removing it from the robot when you pull the link its not viable anymore :)

ye we would put an LED in the link and that is a clever idea james but well see how we do it, currently its not a major issue with us

Gary: Of course, make it bright enough and you can see whether the flag is in from the other side of the pits without having to squint. :-)

(Of course, RAF sight tests might mean you never have this problem, but for us mortals...)

--
Fluppet

Gary, dont planes carry lights ? Should have been obvious... :wink:

lol guess we could shove the light they have on the nimrod......

if my mind serves me correct it has the same power as 2million candles and burns out unless the plane is flying to cool it down. :)

You mean this?

http://military.szm.sk/fgaleria/nimrod.jpghttp://military.szm.sk/fgaleria/nimrod.jpg