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Thanks for the good words Shane :)
I've been trying to build robots lately myself...bloody Royal Mail redirection though, haven't got the bits I need :P but come next Saturday I should be a roboteer of sorts. Let it never be said with people like Jack and Dave W and me around that fanfic serves no purpose :)
Hey Swanny, check out the FRA Official Announcements section at the top of the forum, Kane's posted a date of 25th July for the next FRA meeting :)
I haven't posted here yet because I've not been sure of where I see roboteering in the future. Attending two or three events a year means I don't tend to notice situations such as falling crowd numbers at RR events or the need to change event formats etc.
Now that I've given it some thought, here's what I think. Gary mentioned about promoting the sport as robotic combat or robotic entertainment, which is something I do when asked what my hobby is. I say I build and compete in combat robotics - I don't say Robot Wars as (a) I was never on the show, (b) the show's absence from our screens for the past few years means more and more people have either forgotten about it or don't know about it, and (c) people who do know the show associate the heavyweights with it, which is a weight category I don't build for yet.
As I believe has already been posted, while a Robot Wars connection can be beneficial when it comes to event promotion, it can also be a hinderance because those who remember the show may be expecting to see the 'big guns' if you like; Razer, Chaos 2, Hypno-disc, etc. Even though the current crop of machines competing are exceptional and are well-known names now, they may not have been big on TV at the time and so don't generate the same awe-factor at events from people expecting to see Chaos 2 flipping like crazy or Razer crushing stuff. I think perhaps some disconnection from the Robot Wars brand, while maybe initially having a detrimental effect, would be more beneficial in the long run for our sport/hobby.
Someone also mentioned how successful Robogames is over in America, with the various different categories alongside the traditional combat. I also know Craig is mentioning walkers, middleweights etc at his upcoming events. I think disversity such as this will be more prominent in the future. First off however, comparing Robogames and an RR event for example; having such a range of categories at RR events may not work so well purely due to the 'entertainment' need. Robogames is a competition first and foremost. They compete to find the winners in each category and if its entertaining then hey, great! If its not, its not really a problem as the competition carries on regardless. RR on the other hand, although its running a competiton throughout all of its events this year, needs to be entertaining to continue to pull the crowds in. As Jonno has already mentioned, the flip-out cages have already helped to lengthen battles and therefore prolong entertainment so that's good.
The UK Robotic Games was the closest thing to Robogames that's been run in the UK recently, but it sadly on lasted two years. From my own viewpoint, I still love the combat aspect of things and feel there's still a lot more I want to achieve in that category, so considering that, I often found some of the non-combat/non-featherweight categories competing at the UKRG a bit uninteresting (sorry!). That's what I like about Robogames; they've got so many different categories competing (walkers, fire-fighting machines, dancing robots etc) but the full-on robot combat still commands a large percentage of the event so that's currently enough to hold my interest, and hopefully from events like that I would develop more of an interest in the other categories and as a result, would build machines to compete in them and help keep competitior levels up.
Combined events of the Robogames style are a good way forward in my eyes from the following perspective:
Split it into two main groups: the robot combat and the other events. Technology clubs from schools I believe would be more willing to cater to the 'other events' categories because they may see it as being more educational than simply raw robot combat. I always consider building combat robots as a personal/team of friends or workers endeavour due to the sheer amount of money and time that is required to keep a robot going. That dedication is fuelled by a passion and that is something that doesn't always exist in school-formed teams (there are bound to be exceptions of course!)
So, you've got individuals and friend/colleague teams entering the robot combat, and the school teams entering the other events. A kid or two from each of the school teams might be keen on building a combat robot and upon seeing them fighting live at the event, decide to take the plunge and build their own self-funded robot (compared to the machines their technology club has built, which may have been funded by the school and have restrictions on for safety reasons). So they build their robots and help to boost robot combat numbers.
In return, the robot combat teams/individuals have a chance to have a look round all the other events besides robotic combat that are taking place, and may be interested in having a go at a few of the non-combat challenges either by themselves or with their team just as a change to building fighting machines all the time. If a lot of robot combat poeple did this, it would boost the numbers of the other event entries.
So what you've got is basically each group supplementing entries for the other group as a result of discovering an enjoyment or wanting to try something new and due to the quantity of entries, the event can run successfully many times.
That made a lot more sense in my head than when I typed it out but hopefully what I'm saying comes across :)
Obviously an event like this can't be held every month the same way current events are so its not likely that an event of such a nature would 100% replace the current style of events but I feel (or would like to hope :)) that Robogames-style events will come to prominence in the coming years.
And just to say a big thank you to all our event organisers, and in particular Jonno with Roaming Robots, for giving us places to fight and keeping our hobby/sport alive for all the years that you have so far. People may nag or criticise at times when things aren't being done the way they imagined or expected, but deep down the effort you all put in is appreciated by each and every one of us who chooses to fritter away their wages on bits of metal and fritter away their weekends in a shed in the middle of winter :)
Well there's been a lot of good ideas flowing in this thread. Of which i have been involved in it all.
Its a shame more haven't wanted to have an input in there own hobby. Maybe they are busy with other things. Maybe they don't read the forum. Or maybe they just don't want to get involved. Thats their choice.
After riat unfortunately there is going to be some changes some good, some bad, some people will like, others won't, work is underway putting things in place
Many thanks for that compliment Ady - the whole 'look' is meant to be distinctive and memorable and we have gained quite a fanbase because of it - mainly the dads and daughters :rofl: That, together with the posters and keyrings have appealed to girls. Now the team is going in a new direction with making Geoff more prominent, getting David more involved and Mike Lambert joining the team. A brand new HW is on the way and we are changing our 'public image' for want of better words. In the end that 'girlie' part won't disappear but we are working to widen our appealQuote:
when my daughter went to one event all she kept talking about was the girls dressed in pink with the sweets!!
Why am I telling everyone all this - well it's simple - self promotion! There's nothing like it for raising interest. This is something that (for those who are there) can talk about at length at RIAT without the officialdom of the FRA getting in the way of free speech. The future of this sport is down to all of us - perhaps through the haze of alcohol we can start to see things more clearly :shock:
Did not want to post on this subject so i wont. The reason will not be attending any events in the near future with robots any way. But good luck with the future.
Hi. I have been reading this debate with interest and have decided to post for the first time ever as an indication of Michael and Adrian's commitment to the sport!
Firstly a massive thank you to all EO's, I agree with Ian that these events provide great opportunities for all young roboteers out there and more importantly are hugely enjoyable. As such we are commited to building a heavyweight as soon as we can, unfortunately for us the two constraints are time and transport but we will persevere.
I also agree that we should all do whatever we can to help EO's, therefore to Jonno an offer of help to promote Wigan if you need as we are only 10 miles away!!
I can add no value to the technical future of roboteering. However the debate needs to also focus on the cold hard fact that events need to become commercially viable. Hence the following two suggestions for debate and peoples' views:
Timing of events is very important!!! The audience seems to me to be made up largely of families with boys aged from 8 to 13. Bank holidays such as Easter and the recent Spring Bank holiday are traditionally the time when everyone goes on holiday!! Even in a credit crunch people will still go to Tesco, buy a cheap tent and go camping.
I just have always thought the market simply isn't there at these times and that there are too many other alternative events going on to complete against. Maybe events scheduled during term times and when the weather is cold might fare better??????
Also, am sure this has already been thought of, but a focus on maximising the £spend per paying customer at events could also help.The time between battles may be an ideal opportunity for this. An idea might be to be a bit more agressive in selling merchandise between battles eg by physically walking up to and amongst the crowd, a bit like when the old cinemas used to sell ice creams at intervals??? It seems to me we encourage the crowd to the autographs and not to spend money.
As I say this is my first (and probably last ever) post and I hope the comments are interpreted in the constructive manner in which they were intended. Thanks again to all EO's for all their efforts!! Would put a smiley face here but don't know how to!
Gill(Michaels mum)
Gill, your not my mum.
Thank you Gill
Good Ideas!!
Hi Tony,
Good Luck for the future, in what ever you do.
You must pop along to Barnsley next year, I'm sure we can find a robot for you to drive.... even if its MD... Just for old times sake !!
:-)
Thanks for getting involved everyone it has helped in my decision process :-)
Hi Jonno
Not gone forever
The overtime at work paid for the robots
Now no overtime for a year we have been told plus no pay rise this year.
Hopefully it will improve next year
Fingers crossed
Tony.
No payrise up here either Tony , but all things being equal we will be at Barmsley next year, and one of our robots will be at your disposal for the weekend. If you are really nice to Wendy she won't offer Stagefright. :rofl: :rofl:
Hi. A thought came to me today. A few of the teams produce stickers us included.
I thought why not produce something that the audience can pick up on their way in ?...of course its impossible to do a programme for each event and costly for the EOs. So then thought if each of the teams used a standard template eg word document etc, we could all produce our robots stats on say A5 (1/2 A4) with some team info, have the EOs details, forum website etc and next events etc.
Upto each of the teams if they want to fund this themselves / put the effort in but if a couple of teams can do this every event it could help the community and advertise. Plus the fact gives the audience something to aim their cheers for !
Just an idea.
Cheers Ian
Hi Ian,
See this is why its good to chat and talk, and come up with ideas, although im already one step ahead of you.
We have a generic event program which we sell at events, high volume printed to keep the cost down.. however...
I had already decided, that it wouldnt cost much to print some extra info to slip inside it for each event, along the lines of what you sugessted, it would have an up to date robot list, any news / gossip, current standings on the the league table, and some stats from the robots etc....
if roboteers wanted to print off their own signs and banners etc,,,,, to brighten up the pits they would be more than welcome. hint hint !!
Regards
John
The league version of the UK championships has been a reall success with HW roboteers this year but I think this means that with one day events there is less chance of a competition for the day being organised. Personally I think this loses something for the crowds. When we used to come to events as a spectator we would generally book to see the final because it was more exciting. Maybe it is the case that commercially/marketing wise it makes more sense to have a competition which can be sold to the public and is decided on the day rather than their event just being part of a league and being invited to watch some fights where they have absolutely no chance of seeing who the winner of the overall competition is. Or maybe there's a halfway house.
Andy
something i think the audience might like is a giant board or projector screen showing a list of all the shows fights to come mabye with a picture by the name of the competing robots for each fight,- or mabye on a screen a thing saying 'next fight up' with pictures of the robots and their names. i no this wouldn't be really possible with the feathers but it might be a good idea for the heavy weights, becasue the audience will be happily able to see the robots names and cheer on which they think is best.
Thats a good Idea if you go to the cinema, they are always trying to sell you stuff use the screens to run adverts for any drinks and sweats, also goods form the merchandise stall. I know Mr Stu could do something that could be run at all shows on a loop so it could be started when the fights are not on. :D
Use what we have to sell what weve got :shock: :shock:
Not 100% linked to the future of roboteering or how we can improve live shows, but who else has seen the picture links in the Malaysia section of the forum for their Robogamez 2009 event?
Their 'theme' or sub-name for the event is 'Rising of the Silent Tower: Resist or Surrender'
How awesome a name is that for a robot event? :) As I said in the Malaysia thread, it sounds like its a title for a video game, but using it for naming a robot event just gives a nice little twist to things :)
It might not be do-able now (or whether there'd be enough interest in it/it would be logistically viable down the line) but having a videogame style themed robot event where the robots have to either work together or fight against each other to complete missions would be cool 8)
Its the sort of thing that would work well more with the all-terrain idea that was mentioned earlier in this thread, so it may not be achieveable any time soon but may as well stick it in this discussion so I don't forget it :lol:
EDIT: It would involve having to have some sort of new story for every event so that the audience could follow what's happening, so unless whoever writes the missions was really talented at churning out gripping stories frequently, it wouldn't be a once-a-month thing. But it could be done in such a way that several parts of the mission depend on audience participation, such as gettting them to drive a robot for some sort of sub-challenge
EDIT AGAIN!: Just remembered that this sort of thing happens in the Fanfic section, where they have vapourbot RPGs occasionally. Makes a nice little change to the norm
RoboWars has a similar naming scheme with its events here in Aus. We've had the following names:Quote:
Originally Posted by k_c_r
RoboWars 1
RoboWars 2: The Wreckoning
RoboWars 3: Judgment Day
RoboWars 4: Carnage Continuum
RoboWars 5: Destination Devastation
RoboWars 6: System Smash
Makes it sound like a chapter in a novel :)
In the near future it is rumored that 40 MHz systems will be banned , i personally have never used anything but (so i may be subject to bias he he) . All newcomers to the sport of roboting use 40 MHz systems , as for a first robot spektrum systems are wayyyy out of most peoples budget. There is no doubt in my mind that spektrum systems are better , but there is no problems with 40 MHz systems , spektrum systems are just better , and really its down to your budget and personal preference. For one , if 40 mhz systems are banned ill be forced to give up this sport , and so will many others .
as most of us that use spec`s its a recomend but I would never go back to any thing else than 2.4 gig system
if i wasnt on a pocket money budget i would have gone 2.4 gig ages ago , but i just cant afford a spektrum system . would bluetooth still be allowed under 2.4 ghz ?
as long as its safe works and failsafes i cannot see a problem butyou would haveto ask the experts in this field
i was just thinking ,if the worst comes to the worst and 40 mhz is banned , xbee moduels might be a cheap 2.4 ghz alternative
i'm all for convincing people to go away from 40.
If there is a safer option available we should encourage it.
I think there even out now . . My local model shop is selling or about to sell 4 channel 2.4 gig cheaper than 2 channel 40 sets.
I've sold plenty of 40 stuff on ebay you can recoup most of your costs towards them.
Any new teams should go 2.4 straight away. :-).
Here's a thread we were looking at:Quote:
Originally Posted by muchalucha
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=801036
Never really had the time yet to get anything up and running but certainly doesn't look that hard. The Xbee modules seem a bit expensive to me and there are other alternatives which work just as well and are a bit cheaper.
Andy
My view on the 40mhz and 2.4ghz issue is simple.
1/ The FRA should say in the rules that, 2.4ghz systems are preferred but 40mhz are still allowed for the time being.
2/ 40mhz systems will be phased out in 5 years. This gives plenty of time to find a 2.4mhz unit in the second hand market. If it€™s about an old robot not coming back as a result of this rule, then I would say, if it is not coming back in 5 years it€™s probably not coming back at all.
3/ EO€™s retain the right to refuse any radio system at their events if it is not compatible for them.
I have at least 3 complete systems that run on 40mhz so i would not like to see the rules change too soon. :blush: :blush:
Thanks
Craig
someone (maybe me :)) should design a small 2.4 ghz transimmter and receiver pair simialr to the one shown above , a module similar to the xbee units , and microcontroller at both ends would allow for an almost normal 2.4 ghz system , and the signals from ps1 controllers are fairly easy to decode , so these could be used as transmitters.
in fact , i am going to have a play with something like this , ill keep you guys posted n any progress :).
How is 2.4GHz safer John? So far there has been 2 product recalls on 2.4GHz sets. Safety should not have any reliance on the radio gear, there should be other systems in place that prevent injury. There appears to be a culture growing that is becoming dependant on the advantages of 2.4GHz which is not a certified fail safe system. As far as I am concerned, 2.4GHz has just two advantages and good ones at that: no crystal changes and little aerial needed. There are no safety features that I am aware of on 2.4GHz that cannot be equally achieved on 40MHz unless someone can explain to me what I am missing. The issue now is that 2.4GHz users may not be suppressing the electrical noise and causing interference to 40MHz users which is not permitted under the FRA build rules.
The electrical noise point is interesting I don€™t have any suppressors on most of my robots. Could the noise be measured at a show and advice on reduction maybe parts sold be done there and then. I for one would not like to think my machine was causing problems for others, I think the main area would in practice be the featherweight robots as there can be so many in the arena together the noise from all those motor may cause problems.
On another note has anyone else had problems getting onto the Technobots web site as for most of the weekend I have had no luck!!! :uhoh: :uhoh:
to be honest , in an average house thee are loads of sources of 2.4 ghz interference , wifi , any wifi compatible device, bluetooth devices , microwaves. And i have never had anyinterferance problems with 40 mhz , ill say it again , 40 mhz is fine , but 2.4 ghz is just a little bit better , and i think that eventually 2.4ghz shoudl be introduced but not for another 10 , or at the very least 5 years.
i must admit i had lots of problems with interference on 40mhz.
all of my electronics is suppressed both when i was on 40mhz and 2.4ghz,
even though i could remove all the suppressors etc as they dont affect me
i dont wont to cause problems for others, well apart from the odd oota !
I think newly designed robots built with 2.4 will not fit suppression as they will
not have any controll problems, not realising they are creating problems for
40mhz users.
theres no point putting a time limit to stop people using 2.4 as do u rly think were going to be doing this in 5 years time? i cant atm
as for 40mhz its been proven way 2 many times that these shouldnt be used anymore, 2.4ghz solved loads of problems - i remember when tilly wouldnt work years ago , we plugged our 2.4ghz system into it and it started working straight away fine, pete went and brought the set off sewer snake and i doubt pete has ever gone back to using 40mhz
do shops even sell 40mhz nowadays? and isnt that spektrum dx5 like £60? should be first on the list before any robot has started to be made
John, the only reason I can think of where 2.4GHz solved the problem for Tilly was that the 40MHz system was failing due to interference. Installing 2.4Ghx didn't solve the problem, just masked it and possibly left the interference to interfer with others. Why do you think the 2.4GHz solved the Tilly problems?
Of course 40MHz systems are still for sell and I have a number of customers who will not touch 2.4GHz. However, in general the sales are on a decline.
Also, a real issue with 2.4GHz is that they are biased towards aircraft with in general just a single failsafe channel. This leaves the other channels often staying put after loss of signal etc.. You don't get this problem with 40MHz.
Paul is correct in so far that 2.4GHz is just a frequency, nothing else. There is no specific failsafe mechanism for the 2.4GHz band, just an agreement that equipment used in Europe are required to abide to. This creates a problem with all the cheap 2.4GHz stuff coming in illegally from China without being checked by customs which will happily exceed these guidelines by a factor of 4 ore more. I've seen a $40 usd 2.4GHz transmitter that will happily pump out 800mW EIRP (the ETSI standard is 100mW max).
By the way, have the tests as proposed previously been implemented yet?
As for interference, all our robots, from raptor to heavy have all suppression methods in place both on motors and valves. That is still a precaution all robot builders should take in my opinion, if anything as a courtesy to other roboteers.
Also keep in mind that even though the receiver might not be prone to interference, your speed controller and RC switches might be so isolating them is still a good idea. Interference is not only a problem at the antenna level but behind the receiver as well.
in a word no , im not dropping my 40 mhz system until i absolutely have to . And even then ill stick a spektrum sticker over the hitec sticker and hope nobody notices :rofl: .
sorry gotto lol (with sticker)
i just like the 2.4 spec (personaly)
AM/FM radios are just trash regardless of frequency (I've used 27/29/36/40/72mhz units), they interfere with each other on parallel channels even with failsafes! PPM or PCM is much better, I cannot think of why anyone would use anything else in a sport that is very dangerous.
I prefer the 2.4ghz spektrum radios because they solve all the issues we had in previous years as well as provide increased safety. They require such minimal setup to get them to work in any situation, you don't need godly large antenna hanging out the robot, you can mount them right beside an arcing motor and they don't have issues. I have seen a BR6000 wedged up against the fets of an IBC speed controller, which was mounted in an aluminium box, mounted inside a plough disc and still get perfect signal (Robot called Offset).
Sounds like we have a fair few witch hunters in the crowd, too scared to sell their horse & carriage and buy a automobile :wink:
EDIT: The other benefit with spektrum is that because it runs a GUUID, stray interference or channel collisions don't affect the radio.
Trash I think not. Once again a pro 2.4 gig believes 2.4 gig is safer, as far as I am aware no hobby radio system has been certified as offering any safety functionality. Any hobby radio can malfunction with indeterminate results as can the other systems within a robot. It's about choice, use 2.4 gig if you wish, I may well do myself but so far I have heard nothing that makes me believe that 40MHz is any less safe than before. In fact I am becoming concerned that this reliance on the perceived belief that 2.4 gig is safer is going to bite someone.
I THINK THE WORD SAFER IS WRONG !!
This is where the issues are arising when people use the word safer
In my opinion ( only my honest ) the issues that the spectrum 2.4 gig solve are interfieerance and this can be construde as a safer option as to 40meg which are far more suseptable ...
So wording is an issue when discussing pro's and con's for 2.4 V 40meg
In my opinion 2.4 is a more reliable system to use as you have minimised one issue that we have all suffered from in the past :proud: :talker: :talker: :kiss:
Just my 2peneth worth ..........
The DSM technology is what makes them safer, the 2.4ghz frequency itself is just like Leo said, another frequency (Although the higher the frequency, the lower the chance of environmental interference). If the 40mhz radios had the DSM-like packet based protocol built in, I wouldn't be saying that the Spektrums are safer. The Spektrum's are packet radios, unless you can find some magical source of interference that can generate data packs with the corresponding GUUID, the Spektrum radios will not suffer from interference like an AM/FM radio. You can interfere with an AM/FM radio by running an unsuppressed brushed motor that's arcing a bit, you only need the arcing to interfere with the frequency modulation (or amplitude for AM) to generate a signal that will make it past a failsafe device and cause servo jitter.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2xt
The Spektrums are like a wifi network, if you blast the 2.4ghz band with mass interference, it will just stop working as the packets can't get through the noise. FM based wifi would probably make your printer start spitting out pages of garble under mass interference.