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I spoke to Spektrum in the US last week regarding legality of the DX6 in the UK. I was assured it was legal as detailed in the manual.
I also spoke to Ofcom who told me the Spektrum was legal for use in the UK.
Regardless of what the distributor have told you, Ofcom are the people who say whats legal.
Can your distributor provide you with specific information regarding what is illegal?
Why are they not for sale anywhere in the UK then? surely if they sell the DX3 over here they would sell the DX6?
There is a big difference between using a radio in the UK and selling one. There is an approval process any radio device must go through before it can enter the UK market and I can only assume that this hasnt been completed yet.
As the rules for model use of the 2.4GHz spectrum have only recently changed I would imagine that this has hindered any process the DX6 must go through before entering the UK market... But this does not change their use in the UK.
The facts are:
1. The DX6 outputs 10mW which is legal for use in the UK, even for models.
2. The DX6 is CE stamped
3. The DX6 is FCC approved
4. Ofcom confirm it is legal to use in the UK.
Is it not just a case of the DX6 is illegal in the sense that it cant yet enter the UK market, but its operation in this country is perfectly legal?
As Kane says:
quote:
There is a big difference between using a radio in the UK and selling one
Or has everyone now realised this and Im only just catching on? :crazy:
After all said and done, what are the experiences from the people that used their DX6s in the last UK champs?
Is it safe to assume that the FRA will allow 2.4Ghz systems just like the 40 Mhz and 459Mhz?
The DX6 is without doubt the best radio I have ever used, it leaves 40 Mhz PCM for dead! (both in outright performance and ease of use)
John and I conducted a range test at the event with one fitted in Scorpion Evilution.. We swiched on the weapons drive motors (chain disconected of course!!) and John went walk-about with the TX... He got across the field over the railway line and was heading past the funfair when he finaly got fed up with walking and came back! (A distance of at least 200M) Not once was there the slightest twitch or loss of control. (In fact he claimed he could have driven the machine from the campsite!!)
The FRA will need a vote to approve its addition to 40 & 459Mhz at the next committee meeting, but I think the out-come of that vote is already a forgone conclusion!!
I was having huge problems on the first day with my 40mhz duel conversion set and could not get more than a couple of metres away! I went back to birmingham after my first fight and bought a DX3 so that i could continue fighting. I didnt get a glitch at all!
The receiver was taped by the side of my astros and still worked perfect! 2.4Ghz will wipe the market very soon.
Ordered mine and sold my 40Mhz set, so i hope its allowed :)
Theres one thing niggling at me about the 2.4Ghz solution and thats performance of multiple units. Ive discussed this with an 802.11 development engineer here at BT Labs to get his view on this.
You start with 80 channels in the 2.4Ghz spectrum - excellent I hear you say. A Tx uses two of these and isolates the two around it meaning that each Tx uses 6 channels. With 80 channels available that means you can only have 12 units at the same event live at any time.
What happens when you have more than 12 ? How do you control what goes on - as you cant run TX in the standard manner ? Equally a WiFi access point in the vicinity will use a slice of that spectrum taking whats available down further (in fact WiFi uses around a third of the 2.4Ghz spectrum). Bluetooth phones will also take chunks out of the spectrum.
So in a situation where youre running near a WiFi access point you could find that you can only run a maximum of 8 transmitters at any one time (less if someone has bluetooth enabled).
The problem is how do you know ? How do you enact transmitter control in this situation. What do these transmitters do with they cant allocate a frequency ? Do they multiplex themselves in with the other transmitters ?
Whilst the small number of 2.4Ghz transmitters used at the UK Champs demonstrated that they can get a signal from point A to point B very well when used in isolation/small numbers I would STRONGLY suggest that before we all rush out and buy one someone does some research into what happens with large numbers of these units come together (and as the maths above shows, large may only mean 8 or 13 units). There doesnt appear to be a consensus on what should happen at this point.
I feel it may be premature to call this a forgone conclusion unless you know something I dont know - and something the 802.11 development engineer beside me doesnt know !
Ed
http://www.teamstorm.com
And yes I thought this point amongst the 2.4Ghz will wipe 40Mhz off the planet and its a forgone conclusion that bold seemed worth using to get your attention
I would have read it anyway Ed, even without the bold text.
The fact of the matter is, that no matter what frequency you are on, you should not turn on any transmitter unless it is to fight your robot or to test it on the bench (during events I mean of course).
Unless we do an super melee like we did in the end of the championship, most of the time we wont run any more then 10-12 robots in the arena at the same time anyway (that is with feathers).
Apart from that, I do agree that you might want to test a bit more, but this also poses the problem If 2.4Ghz is not allowed yet, we will never have enough TXs to test it properly.
For me it is pretty simple. If the robot does not respond in the arena, it will lose. What frequency the robot is one makes no difference in that. The only question is, will it produce a safety issue if it does? To me, it looks like it doesnt. Therefore I see no reason not to allow it.
It is untested territory to some extend, however as long as people that are going to use 2.4Ghz know this, I feel the choice should be up to them. If people feel comfortable to take that chance, I would let them. I will take my chances just because the benifits outweigh the possible problems for me.
Leo, the testing/statement should come from the manufacturer. I could get someone here to draw up a testing methodology that we could go through but I would rather see a statement from the manufacturer.
All Im saying is that before we all charge ahead and buy new TXs we should check that how they behave when large numbers of them come together is understood - that seems an obvious thing to do to me ?
One option may be to run TX control and simply not allow more than 10 802.11 transmitters out at any given time to avoid the problem from occurring ?
Id certainly be wary of allowing them at an XFM event (where no disrespect the risk is taken by me the event organiser) without understanding some simple fundamentals as outlined above.
Ed
I understand where your concern as a event organiser is coming from Ed, but I dont see the higher risk in allowing a frequency to be used if the maximum risk afaik is that a robot goes into failsafe because it cant find a free channel.
On 27/40 MHz where the robot might be taken over by a different TX i would be more worried. As people may have seen when Hammerhead was powered up a couple of years ago in the UK, that is a serious safety issue.
Turning in your TX to transmitter control with the link is something I support anyway, no matter what frequency.
(Message edited by leo-rcc on August 30, 2006)
(Message edited by leo-rcc on August 30, 2006)
Ed, Two quetions:
1) Have you personaly e-mailed the manufacturer with the information you have heard?
2) Can i use my DX6 set at your next event?
Here are some details from Spektrum (the manufacturer).
The Spekturm system uses DIRECT SEQUENCING SPREAD SPECTRUM (DSSS).
The DSSS standard is unique in that it hunts for and locks into a single channel; there isn€™t any channel-hopping. When the transmitter is turned on, the module scans and locks on to any channel that is not in use. Because of the 2.4GHz spectrum€™s collision avoidance requirements, locking into one channel requires different anti-interference measures than those implemented in FHSS systems. A DSSS-based system spreads the RC data over a wide bandwidth using a pseudo-random noise code. The receiver knows its transmitter€™s spreading code and can distinguish its intended radio signal. Spreading has the additional benefit of digitally increasing the range of the system for the same power. A further security method particular to the DSM is the use of a globally unique identifier code (GUID). This code is encoded into every RC data packet. The GUID is one of 4.2 billion potential codes; there aren€™t even 7 billion people on the planet.
WHAT ABOUT CELL PHONES, CORDLESS PHONES, WIRELESS ROUTERS, ETC.?
All wireless devices on the 2.4GHz have to include collision-avoidance technology €â€no exceptions. There could be 20 cordless phones, as many wireless routers and a multitude of other devices, and the result would be the same: no interference.
In the US model nitro car racing clubs have been using Spektrum for a period of time now, running over 20 radios at the same time. This has been so successful that some organizations are almost insisting that they are used.
(Message edited by james...venom on August 30, 2006)
Dave in answer to your questions
1) Yes I have
2) Until I get a response from the manufacturer I cant really answer that can I Dave ?
James : Im not questioning the problem of interference as we know it in 40Mhz systems. Im wanting assurance on how it deals with collision avoidance. Also if 20 units can run together this suggests theyre doing something othat than blocking out 6 frequencies for themselves each as there just wouldnt be enough frequencies left.
... I dont like unanswered questions !
Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com
Was there any robot who did have a problem with it during the past event ? And what exactly happened ?
So far, from hearing some of the proud owners, it seems to work like a charm. But before people start robbing banks in order to pay for the new sets we should know about every little glitch or major jam that could happen.
After all, safety must at all times be utmost prominent in what we do.
Guys there are a number of issues that need to be ironed out before 2.4Ghz can be accepted into the FRAs rules.
Most of these will be around process and procedure when using the units. Ensuring that the BIND process is controlled, understanding what happens with multiple units and dealing with a TX check in/out process (which may remain as is for example).
My concern is that we are all rushing out an buying the kit before the FRA has approved the hardware and surrounding process and procedure for use at FRA events.
Until that time use of these units would be down to the event organiser in question and it would be their responsibility to come up with their own process and procedure to ensure safe use of the technology.
I should also point out that currently the use of a 100mW transmitter for the use of radio controlled models (which we would fall under) is not permitted in the UK. Ofcom are currently looking at changing this.
The reason for the restriction is to deal with congestion in the 2.4Ghz band. Its all very well having a 3000ft range, but if a group of 20 of us can saturate the WiFi spectrum for 3000ft around us that annoyes a lot of DECT, Bluetooth, WiFi etc users ! So currently the technology isnt licenced for use in the UK for model control.
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Copy and Paste from the Ofcom site
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/licensing/classes/rlans/technical/ofw311/http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/i...hnical/ofw311/
4. What frequencies are available?
The specific frequency bands available for the use of radio controlled models are shown below, with the maximum effective radiated power output of the transmitter measured in milliwatts. Within these bands, specific channel arrangements apply. Please refer to the UKRCC website http://www.ukrcc.org/ for full details.
26.96 to 27.28 - 100mw
34.945 to 35.305 - 100mw
40.66 to 41.00 - 100mw
458.5 to 459.5 - 100mw
However, radio control models may also share the frequency bands allocated to General Telemetry and Telecommand with all other such applications. Most of the Telemetry and Telecommand allocations remain impractical for model control, due to restrictions on channel capability or too little power to give sufficient range. Also, most General Telemetry and Telecommand allocations are located in the international Industrial, Scientific and Medical (ISM) frequency bands, so may well suffer interference from commonplace machinery. Details of ISM bands are shown in annex A of the UK Frequency Allocation Table [UK FAT]
One ISM band that has been identified by model control manufacturers, in the General Telemetry and Telecommand allocations, is 2400 - 2483.5 MHz. The power output is low at 10 mW e.i.r.p, however the wide bandwidth can be used to give acceptable operability for surface use only.
Frequency (MHz)
2400 to 2483.5 - 10mw
----------------------------------
Again further information from the UKRCC website states
2.4GHz band - covers the frequencies from 2.400 to 2.4835GHz providing 80 channels with a maximum transmitter power of 10mW erp. Automatic frequency selection (no crystals required).
Until OFCom approve the 100mw control solution for use in the UK I wouldnt advise any event organiser to reccomend its use as should there be an issue (Safety or otherwise) they would be liable for endorsing it. Ditto the FRA.
And you can state all the blah blah but the manufacturer says all you want, it doesnt change the law !
Surley thats common sense ?
Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com
It did seem almost too perfect. It will be interesting to see what (if anything) Spektrum have to say about how the transmitters actually handle packed Wi-fi and bluetooth bands - as Ed says each Tx couldnt possibly saturate six channels completely if twenty sets really can run together.
Has anyone yet turned on their Tx for it to say that there are no free channels available, or does it just seemingly butt its head into a smaller space in the band?
Sorry Ive not been able to post for a while due to the championships and work commitments. Since I last posted, Paul Cooper emailed me regarding the power output of the DX6 which he had been assured was 100mW. Having phoned Spektrum again, I have been told that it is indeed 100mW output which means that its use in the UK for radio controlled models is not currently legal.
Ofcom currently have a consultation out which includes the use of 2.4GHz at 100mW for radio controlled models. This consultation is due to be implemented in November/ December.
People may draw their own conclusions from that.
My personnal experience with the DX6 has been great. The reception is flawless and completely glitch free. Failsafing works perfectly even without the transmitter on.
But the system is yet to be tested thoughly. One works perfectly. Weve had possibly three or four running together. But if everyone had one would it still work perfectly. Ed has some very valid points that do need to be discussed.
That said, the safety aspect alone is enough to switch to Spektrum. Anyone whos had their robot glitch during arming/ disarming will know what I mean.
its use in the UK for radio controlled models is not currently legal.
thats exactly what ive been saying scince the beggining lol
Ed with all the tx sets haveing a unique GUID they cannot possibly interefere with each other. They also have 2 recivers built in 1, completely separete systems so if one some how has traffic the other will search for a new frequency.
James, its a lot more complicated than that... Once Ive had chance to speak to Ofcom again, itll be much clearer.
Have to agree with Kane there James, whilst I accept youre reciting the marketing blurb from their website things are a little more complex than that in reality.
Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com
So if I read this correctly, the only reason not to use them at the moment is that the exceed the max transmiting power? Even though they are allowed to send at 100mw in other countries?
And what about wireless lans in the UK then? They usually send out between 30mw and 100mw.
Well the issue as I see it is that Ofcom doesnt like the idea of potential interferance (well thats probably not the best term, rather restricting of data transit :crazy:) with other 2.4GHz systems for every square km or so that a 100mw transmitter is operating.
how is it any more complicated, i belive they are too powerfull to be used for remote controlled models which is why they are illegal at the moment. hence the reason the dx3 (10mw) is still allowed. Unless there are other issues?
We have been in contact with Spektrums technical department and they have stated that the system is designed to run 79 transmitters simultainiuosly without any degredation of control. This number is not effected by the number of WiFi systems or mobile phones in use at the same time, neither will the spektrum tx effect the wifi or mobile phones.
This is direct from spektrum and is not just speculation.
Also, the DX3 is fully legal and tested in cars - so even if the DX6 does not become legal for some time, can we use the DX3?
Grant - and there in lies the problem in Ofcoms eyes I suspect
We have been in contact with Spektrums technical department and they have stated that the system is designed to run 79 transmitters simultainiuosly without any degredation of control.
And with all 79 channels taken up at 100mw no-ones WiFi, Bluetooth, DECT Cordless Phones etc can lock onto a channel for a 3000ft radius around the venue youre running in !
The DX3 is only a 10mw device I believe so would be legal under the Ofcom rules.
Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com
Following some testing at the UK Champs. the Association are due to discuss the use of 2.4Ghz at the next committee meeting. Any amendments to the build rules as to what frequencies are allowed will be based on that discussion and a subsequent vote.
Whatever is agreed by the FRA please remember we in the UK are still bound by current Offcom rules and ultimately the Wireless and Telegraphy act.
Be assured that we are working hard on this problem, but until we make policy on this subject we would appreciate your patience.
Thank you.
Fighting Robot Association.
http://www.fightingrobots.co.ukwww.fightingrobots.co.uk
neither will the spektrum tx effect the wifi or mobile phones
This does not in anyway effect the use of WiFi and mobile phones as stated.
Im just stating the FACTS, direct from spektrum, wheras others on here are posting speculations and so they should not be taken into account in the meeting with the FRA!
I suggest that before people start confusing the situation that facts are found out before speculations are posted as they may effect the FRAs views when they are discussing the safety of these transmitters.
Personaly i dont see a point in the FRA having a meeting on it just yet.
Grant / kane : Do either of you know the date when Offcom are due to do all the specific checks etc to legalise the technology behind the spektrum?
No point arguing over it, Its down to the guys at offcom now- so just sit back and be patient. Personaly i think its a matter of when not if they become legalised. I only think its worth the FRAs time considering legalising its use at events when offcom gives it the go.
The issue with the DX6 is specifically down to the power output of the transmitter and nothing more.
UK legislation http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/i...4784.pdfIR2030
Exactly the point i made over a month ago
in most wireless routers there is an option to tune down the power output of the transmitter (altough nobody uses it). Does the DX6 have such a setting?
Sadly not, but even if it did then they would still not be legal as there is nothing stopping you from turning it back up :)
Are all other 2.4GHz sets able to run at events such as the winter tour as they are legal?
actually there is grant, if you press the green button in on the back of the tx it reduces the power down. designed so that you walk about 30 paces away from your plane, press the button in and test. if its ok then it will be fine in the air.
If your transmitter is legal for use in the UK then there should not be an issue with using it at events. However, it is important that you check with the event organiser beforehand.
Having spoken to Ofcom today I can confirm that the consultation closes 22 September and should be implemented some time in november.
In the meantime, we can use a Special Events Licence to legally use 100mW at events (which I am currently organising). This licence will only cover use at specified events.
Is that a license the event organiser needs to get or every user individually?
I dont have all the details yet, but I dont think it needs to be the organiser, just needs to be obtained for the event at the location for the frequency being used.