Pit Rules

A few comments from a commentator....

What matters to roboteers and audience is that the rules are clear.

The pit rule at the 2012 Champs was clear and articulated clearly at the start of the event, and I heard it reiterated a number of times before roboteers went in. Therefore the competition is totally valid, the rules were consistent throughout. Were they different rules to the rest of the year - yes, but that doesn't make the winner any less of an achievement. To start to call the validity of the competition into question dis-respects all those who took part, and those who won.

Audiences only get confused when strange things happen. In a one on one fight if 'Cease' is called as soon as a robot is pitted, there is no confusion for the audience. If a robot goes in and thrashes around for 29 seconds whilst the other one sits and looks on, one could argue that's far worse entertainment for the audience when balanced against the few robots that can get out.

In the 'old days' the Pit of Oblivion was just that, and in my view the idea of a 'sudden death' is actually needed in the fights - like potting the black it offers a totally different and unique hazard in the arena. It levels the playing field, and encourages people to build robots that aren't flippers

However, going back to the topic, everyone taking part knew the rules, everyone knew they were different - please think how you would feel if you triumphed in the competition, playing by the rules as set, and people started calling into question the validity of your achievements.

There is plenty of room for rules to change, whether like John you are trying to run a commercial pure entertainment event, or like the Robots Live guys it's more of a community effort. Both types of events have totally equal merit, and provide differing degrees of audience engagement, interest and interaction.

The single most important thing is that rules throughout an event are CONSISTENT.

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Originally Posted by psycho_fling

this years HW champs seem like a bit of joke to me....

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I find that extremely disrespectful to RL with the effort put into it and the success of the event!
I was at that event, and I can tell you that from a roboteer's point of view it was a hell of a lot better than the previous HW champs at the O2! Things were fair and as Ed stated, it was clear about the pit rule from the start.

With regards to the pit rule - I have always wanted the in the pit and your out scenario - that's how it was in RW and I think that's how it should stay. That's my personal opinion though. At the end of the day - aslong as it's clear from the start whichever rule is used is fine.

With regards to the Venom fight, I did tell James he shouldn't have driven down the pit :) haha.

For roboteer's things like the pit rule and saying make the barrier's higher etc are easy things to point out and say could be improved. However, as an EO we have learnt what actually brings diversity.
For RR and RL, the lack of spinner's have created a flipper frenzy where they have now had to create walls to keep the shows lasting more than 10seconds!
In full combat it's a little different. If we did that things start going down the American route with boxes and spinner's. We don't want too many of anything, a good round mix of robot's is what makes things entertaining in Full Combat. Thats why the walls are the height they are, to keep flipper's coming. The pit is a key feature to make fights more entertaining and bring out better driving. I think that not having to worry about the pit as you can get out looses a large part of the excitement and crowd appeal.
We paid a fortune to get a full hardox floor so that all weapon types can gain advantages using magnets and not getting stuck.

We do all this because we enjoy it and want to keep the sport evolving (we don't make money for putting on our events!), and in our eyes that's exactly what this is, a sport! Putting on a panto with bumper car's is all well and good for entertainment, but that's whats caused a number of people to drop out the HW scene in recent years.

Seems a bit harsh Alex....

Would agree with Craig on many of the points he has brought up, the rules are fine as they are. Some robots are designed to be able to negate the effect of the pit, eg. Seraph, Saint, and some have it as a secondary ability to their weapon, eg. flippers. I'd rather see roboteers adapt their robots to the arena and rules that they are competing under.

As for the comment about all sports levelling the playing field, we do that already by not putting AWs in with HWs and calling it fair, but i've never heard of the FA strapping weights to wingers that defenders cant catch, or asking Mr Beckham if he wouldn't mind only firing in a few good crosses each match because its unfair to the other team.

I listened to the briefing at the UK Champs about the pit and about pinning etc and to be honest after the initial bit I wandered away. It sounded to me like the rules on both needed to be thought out or at least discussed more as each official was saying something different, which was followed by them having an argument with each other. If judges and officials need to clarify the rules with each other moments before an event, what chance to roboteers have of knowing the rules? Maybe in rulings not regarding safety each EO should have a standard set of rules, or at least clarify where each of their shows differ from the standard rules in advance rather than having any of these issues on the day.

I don't see changing the weight rules down as a go-er either, a lot of people would be very annoyed with that one.

Wonder if any robots will be able to flip themselves back into the arena any time soon? :lol:

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Originally Posted by psycho_fling

this years hw champs seem like a bit of joke to me....

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Surprised to see a comment like that from you Alex.

Aside from the fact I don't recall seeing you there (therefore I assume you're basing your assertion off what others think), how is that post supposed to help?

Instead of just calling the event a joke (which in itself is disrespectful to all those that invested their time and money into organising and running the event), why not explain why you thought it was a joke and offer some constructive criticism to the organisers as to where you feel improvements could be made? With our Scot-Bots events, I would be irked if someone slated an event without any justification or suggestions for improvements.

As for the pit rule, I'm of the personal opinion that if you're in it, you're out. Difficult to make it an FRA rule though as it should come down to the discretion of the EO running the event. As Ed stated, as long as specific rules such as those are made clear before fighting commences, and are applied consistently, then there shouldn't be an issue.

Nice to have a juicy discussion topic on the forum again :)

How and why has this topic developed into a full on attack on other EO's events? The point of this thread is simple.If it is the FRA UK Championship (either Heavyweight or Featherweight) then that competition should be fought to the FRA rules.

Who decided to change the rules without consulting the members is another matter.As far as I remember,and I appologise if I am wrong,at the AGM it was decided to allow the committe to continue with the day to day business and consult the members on any major changes.Changing the pit rule I think is a major change.

Aside to all of this I enjoyed both UK Champs this year,James lost his fight,machines are being designed and built to conform to the pit rules,enabling them to escape, and I will continue to drive into the pit anyway.

ok i admit that those words i use weren't the right ones and i apoligise to anyone who might of taken offence or thought i was launching an attack

in my personal opinion from what i have heard and the questions i have asked there seems to be a few (this pit thing being one of them), dodgy things that occured

your right Jamie i wasn't there i wish i was and i'm sure it was a great event with some super fights as normal

at least this discussion does prove something......the fourm does have a pulse :talker:

Draft competition regulations are under development for 2013. There are a number of areas that simply do not work. We will be reviewing pinning, arena hazards and timing, plus anything else that members feel may need work. It should not be necessary to brief roboteers instead we should all simply refer to the regulations.

Outside of FRA competition event organisers may adapt rules to make shows more entertaining but it is important that outside of whiteboards we all take a consistent approach to ensure fair competition.

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Originally Posted by Team Invade

I am putting this is the mix before 2013 in case it appears again without any discussion.

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Draft rules will be published before the end of the year and if you have anything you could send me via email it would be much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by roamingrobots

The FRA however have the right to make the rules at their own champs but since RR has been told we won't be hosting the FRA champs again I don't need to worry about it.

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When?

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Originally Posted by craig_colliass

why aren't the published rules modified if this is now the case?

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I'll put my hand up, it's not been done yet, but I've not been able to type for the best part of 3 months this year and there is a lot to catch up with.

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Originally Posted by teamstorm

The pit rule at the 2012 Champs was clear and articulated clearly at the start of the event, and I heard it reiterated a number of times before roboteers went in. Therefore the competition is totally valid, the rules were consistent throughout.

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Thank you

The rules on the pit are clearly divided, perhaps a poll will help... Vote here!

I like the robochallenge pit because its possible to get out if your robots up to it. I think the audience also likes when a robot jumps out, carries on and goes on to win the fight... Same with OOTA's... if someone one day manages to flip them self back into the arena ( featherweights only), id like to see that fight carry on.

It dosen't take much to figure how I voted, if the vote goes against then I will respect the majority and withdraw Saint, Seraph and Cherub from all applicable fights.

I voted for the pit to be an instant knockout but if this rule is enforced at events, the phrase 'robots are out as soon as they touch the bottom' could be considered a grey area for some.

For example, at the HW champs there was a point when Tiberius was flipped towards the open pit (or similar attacking action) but it ended up bouncing/rolling over the pit and landing on the other side. During this point a part of the robot touched the bottom of the pit; common sense says that that doesn't count as it was just a glancing impact (the whole thing happened in a split-second) but depending on how decisions go, people could argue that it should have counted as Tiberius being knocked out, especially in the heat of a battle/after-battle.

A bit of an extreme example I know, but it illustrates the scenario. I can't remember if at the HW champs it was mentioned that the robot has to have both wheels in/over the pit to be considered 'in the pit', but some sort of clarifying statement may be necessary to detail when a robot is considered in the pit, should this be a competition rule that comes into effect.