-2>Sorry for a) a rather long post and b) the time it has taken to write it - however I wanted to make reference to all the valid and useful points raised since my previous post
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-2>Sorry for a) a rather long post and b) the time it has taken to write it - however I wanted to make reference to all the valid and useful points raised since my previous post
1, 2, buckle my shoe. A long read. No need to apologise though Tim. I€™ve just taken a tenner from my dads wallet and given it back to him as my membership fee, I€™m number 201. I don€™t have a problem with the payment. I don€™t have a problem with the FRA.
If teams have an issue with the FRA, I don€™t understand why they don€™t go to events that do not support the FRA agenda, surely this is a place for those that dont like the FRA.
Some may say that there are not many of these events, does that not tell us something.
This thread doesn€™t make any sense to me, it seems like a waste of time. Nobody is going to gain anything from it.
The FRA is not going to change their mind on the matter, and, by the sound of it Tim, neither are you.
Im sure this is answer to atleast one of your questions..?
Xx
http://www.tom.comwww.tom.com
tom just nip back to your dads wallet and swipe a tenner for me and do my membership. cheers mate :)
LOL, shall i give a donation from you aswell!!:talker:
cool. i will give membership at swindon and donation for the trophies there too.
Well its quite simple really and always has been my view.
When us event organisers run our events, firstly they are advertised on the FRA website and on the Forum.
Roboteers enjoy the privalidge of being able to chat on the FRA forum just as we are discussing here at the moment.
The FRA provide us with the rules and regulations we use to run our events with, and a set of standard safety guidelines to build our arenas to.
Behind all of these documents which have been written by volunteers in their own time are people, and they need protecting by insurance. This insurance has to be paid for by someone and unfortunately its roboteers. Nothing comes for free.
No matter who you are, or what your principals are, when you come to an event, by just being there you are then im my opinion part of the FRA. Your attending an FRA sanctioned event, youve built your robot using the FRA rules, and your fighting in an arena which you know is safe becuse it has been built to the FRA guildlines. You are in fact there because of the FRA.
Now the problem obviously comes when we run an event and we have a selection of non members and members, it just gets complicated.
Why should some get it for free, when the majority put their hands in their pockets and help with funding. To me it is hypocritical on one hand to say i dont agree with the FRA, yet im quiet happy to come to an event which is governed by the FRA.
It simple, everyone needs to be a member, and then everyone is on a level playing field.
The FRA are now looking into getting some trophies, and people have been asked to donate towards them.... I know there will be a few which put therehands in their pocket and donate, but then i also know there will be a few which keep quiet, yet will be happy to attend the Uk Champs and maybe even win the trophies which everyone else has paid for... thats life !!
I come back to my post, and I don€™t understand why people DONT want to join together and all move forward. Why do we have to squabble like kids over the most stupid of things, and loose sight of the real deal.
We need events to run our robots, we need robots to run our events, we need a set of rules to build to, we need arenas built to a safe standard€¦. Before the FRA people were running events in playgrounds, weapons were bring used, we even had wooden arenas, look at us now€¦ as safe as we have ever been, and why is that€¦. Because of the FRA and its volunteers.
I ask again€¦ why do people not want to be a part of it, yet are quite happy to reap the benefits?
Do we really live in a culture of take take take and dont give anything back?
Im still waiting for someones valid reason why they dont want to support, be a part of, or join the FRA.
Have any of you ever even gone out of your way and gone to an FRA meeting? maybe not. If you dont like something n the FRA why dont you get involved and change it, maybe you dont want to do the work like others do behind the scenes?
I really dont understand, and i hope someone enlightens me soon !!!
John
http://www.RoamingRobots.co.ukwww.RoamingRobots.co.uk
Tom - Ill keep my response short if I can :wink:
Glad you have joined the FRA.
I am not asking the FRA to change their minds - I am asking the event organisers (and the FRA governing body as attendees at said meeting) as to why they have chosen to adopt the policy.
Andy has answered my second question but saying that not doing it is to the detriment of 98% of roboteers requires the first question (regarding the benefits) to be answered.
If any event organiser can answer my question on the benefits it would be appreciated
- it really is that simple, I might suprise you all and agree with them and we can put an end to the conversation! :)
I can sympathise with Tims comments, but I also argee with Jonno. Since I attended the last FRA meeting I am happier with how things are run. However Im still not happy with my regional rep, I would have liked some feed back via email from him about the last meeting (once the minute had been ratified). I believe this does happen in other regions. I would also like an email from my rep with the next meeting approaching to see say what my views would be on any points that will be discussed. How can the rep be said to be representing us if this doesnt happen?
I do fully support the FRA, although I do understand the reasons why people have personal disagreements with committee members, as I have had in the past. In an ideal world we should all forgive and forget and move forward.
Jonno, many thanks for a detailed answer (I was still typing my last post as you posted hence still asking the question)
I understand and respect everything that you have said - as I said before I would love it if everyone chose to be a member of the FRA and the reasons you highlight should be enough for most (they are the reasons why I have been a member before and why in all likelyhood I will be a member again in the future)
I just do not like excluding members of our community and we already have at least one example in this thread of a roboteer who was considering returning who will not now. Someone who I might add has contributed in the past with his own approach and who cant really be labelled take take take as a result.
I respect your decision whilst not agreeing with it and appreciate you giving your reasons.
ok,
I dont lable everyone in the take take take bracket and the person your talking about is certainly not in that bracket what so ever....
So you now say you will most probably join, im glad to hear it. Your initial post led me, ( maybe i was wrong ) to beleve that you fell into the bracket of not likingthe FRA, not liking that you were being forced to join, and so you wouldnt be joining.
However I dont see why by the 3 main event organisors chosing to make it compulsary would have to exclude anyone.
Or is this a case of male pride getting in the way ? At the end of the day people do have a choice.
I dont disagree with some of the statements that have been written, but what im asking is what are peoples problems as to why they dont want to join.... weve established that it isnt about the money, so what is it?
That is what is confusing me, and ill wait to find out.
Not singling you out Ewan, but as far as i am aware you havnt been to any events for a long time.... you had your business advertised on the FRA forum for a long time, namely the online shop, were you a member of the FRA at that time? if not, do you not think it was a bit hypocritical? if you were a member then great... but then that means at some point you decided to not like the FRA anymore, what was it that changed your mind ? And how come all of a sudden you got involved to tell us how you dont want to join... are you planning a come back ?
Im just interested.. in anti FRA peoples opinions, but its all gone quiet.
john
oh and ed....
I think you need to find another regional rep :)
Simple solution to your problem... move to nottingham and have trevor as your rep... hes ace :)
To me this seems like a lot of discussion over not a lot.
Every sport needs a governing body, simple (hell darts has two!).
We need to pay to support that governing body, simple.
If you dont like something that the governing body does then get involved and do something to change it, simple.
If you dont like a particular member of the governing body or the politics involved in such a body then I am sorry to say, but grow up. We all have to get along with people we dont like in life and we all have to deal with politics in life whether you like it or not, simple.
Sorry if Im a bit slow on the uptake (studying for exams right now so my brains a bit frazzled!) but when you say that every person attending an FRA endorsed event must be a member, do you mean that each person of a team must be a member, or is it still the same situation as before where one FRA membership will cover all the members of one team?
Ill get my membership sent once I get hold of my dads chequebook (must get one for myself) - as long as I can still take my robot to events and have a fun weekend fighting and socialising, then Im happy
A single membership will cover the whole team however each member can have their own membership if they wish.
You may join as a team or as an individual. If you have a team include them on your membership. Then all of your team would be covered. It still only costs £10.
Same idea at the same time, there Kane.:blush:
Lol, yeah it appears you both did :)
Thanks for clarifying though - I thought it was still a case of a whole team can be covered under one membership, but it was just the way I re-read one of the posts that confused me slightly.
Cheers
Just remember this folks:
- only as a member can you have a say in the policies of the FRA.
- if you are unhappy with the current Board and Committee (the politics), and are a member, what is keeping you from running for the next elections ?
I have done my share (as a regional rep mind you) but due to health and time constraints can no more run for an UK-based body (living in Belgium). I just dont have the money for the regular travels either. Which is why I resigned as rep back then. I felt I couldnt keep up with the FRA meetings and my responsabilities towards the inhabitants of my region. But I still feel that I should have my say about things and thus I throw myself into discussions from time to time. Being whacked on the nose during such discussions is painful, being shut up is even worse. Sorry, but this forum is no longer the free-speech environment it once was and in my opinion should be. That event organisers who dont agree with the politics of the FRA have no other way to get their events known than the grapevine rankles my freedom-loving spirit. I thought it said in the statutes of the FRA that it should promote the sport ? Dont I, when I have the chance to pay my membership or through my teamcaptains memebership, have a right to that ?
who is the midlands rep i dont think ive met him and how is it you become a rep (not that i want to be 1) as i live in birmingham i would like to keep in contact on whats happening at the meetings as ed said
You can find out who your rep is http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/regionalmap.htmhere.
I emailed Tony with the email addresses of everyone I could think of in our region, so he had a list of us. (emails taken from forum profiles - public domain, I did also ask most people). I have had no response. I know our rep does attend the meetings (for the most part), just more communication is required.
Babeth - I work for RL as such I believe that I am unable to stand for a voting position in the FRA. However other bodies that I know of this would not be a problem, as I would declare an interest on any related subject to be voted on and not be allowed to vote. But this would not apply to most decisions. Also I did stand at last election for this position and was not elected (2-1 decision only 3 people voted, there are atleast 7 memberships in my area)
Ed, i dont believe that because you help out at events that it stops you from being able to stand for rep - your not an event organiser, just a roboteer helping out. If that was the case i cant think of many people at all in the midlands that dont do anything to help out at events.
But as you say, 3votes - and thats more than alot of positions had.
I think that kind of proves a point here, people moan all day long about the FRA and people they do/dont like in it, yet when they have the chance to vote someone out they dont bother sending off an e-mail. Come on - you dont even need to get off your arse to do it.
i wasnt able to vote as i had no email or watever you get send to me but i think that was the case with a few people so if that was the case why not realect the midlands rep tony may well win again but at least then we know its a fair win (im not saying tony cheated)
maybe tony would step down? as he isnt as active as he would like to be and as the FRA imo is on the up i think we need an active member.
nothing against tony though
but with so much going on people want to get their views to their rep
with a majority vote cant we force for a revote
i know it sounds bad on tony but ofcourse its not , hes been our rep for as long as iv known and its a job i wouldnt want to do with all the hassle
Matt - regarding not having a form, it was asked many times by people who didnt have one before the end of voting, and they we either sent/forwarded a copy and voted. Yes not every member recieved a form which i believe was not good on the FRAs part, but there was nothing stopping anyone from asking as a few people did.
Matt if I remember I asked you to email the returning officer with your FRA membership number to request a form.
I also like Tony personally, although I dont know him as well as I should, due to as us just starting out the last time Bulldog was fighting properly.
I feel that if you want to change policies of an organisation, you should be part of that organisation. It is far too easy to stand a the sideline shouting your doing it wrong and not come up with solution yourself.
The goal of the FRA is a good one, but Tim pointed out, thats not what his question was about. He asked WHY did the EOs agree that FRA membership is compulsary as it is not a safety issue or a way to forward roboteering.
To me it is a valid question.
In my opinion, roboteers who are not members of the FRA because they have no interest in the politics and rulemaking decisions, should be able to fight at some events, as long as their robots conform to FRA rules. If it is an offical competition (UK Champs for instance) a case can be made for compulsary FRA membership since they are FRA events.
Both GRA and DRG decided it is not in the interest of their members to make FRA membership compulsary. The European mainland roboteers that do cross the channel to compete must decide for themselves wether or not to join, DRG and GRA will not enforce this. Therefore if UK roboteers want to compete in Holland, Belgium, or Germany are not required to join either. you might say But you dont have any events that is not exactly true, we do have them but we feel they are not large enough for UK roboteers to make the journey.
GRA does have a fairly large event in Bochum in Germany in May for Feather and Raptor, called Mad Metal Machines 6. It is a 2 day event, but from the UK it is quite a long drive (at least 4 hours from the Calais harbour). UK roboteers are more than welcome to come, but we would not expect you to.
John, I will indulge you with my answers to your questions:
Last event - so long I can€™t remember, why? As you know I have been just too busy but circumstances were beginning to improve.
Ever a member - yes one of the original members and also pneumatics adviser. Why did I resign as pneumatics advisor? Due to some FRA members accusing me of conflicts of interest ( a view not shared to my knowledge by any FRA officials).
Is the reason for not coming to events FRA - it was not, now maybe.
What is wrong with joining - main reason was resolved last year, now my HW is no longer compliant due to weight so no point.
I read your posts with interest and found it hard to recognise much similarity with that of our frequent conversations which I will not repeat as they are in confidence.
I believe the FRA still exists due to event organisers keeping this hobby alive without EO€™s there would be little need for the FRA. Does this hobby need a governing body, not essential but certainly has benefits. Is it a sport, technically yes but officially and regretfully not yet.
Certain comments in the above posts such as €œpetty€Â, €œsquabble like kids€ €œgrow up€ are made by individuals who I assume do not know the circumstances why I have had issues with individuals on the committee or with the FRA and I see no reason why they should know. If they cannot accept at face value there must have been something significant to justify my actions then so be it. I had everything to lose by cancelling my forum membership for example by not being able to advertise in the commercial section so it was a decision not taken lightly.
I agree totally with Leo€™s post above, although trying to change polices by being on the inside is an ideal but not always achievable and often leads to frustration that even the most resilient of us may ultimately concede defeat.
The FRA from what I understand is still struggling with membership numbers, personally I feel they should encourage builders to join rather than make it compulsory. I have never bought into the PI insurance argument, the EO€™s public liability insurance is surely the main insurance needed but I will be honest and say that I have limited knowledge of this area.
Tony is a nice chap. ive emailed him and he is positive & looking forward to meetings which he is arranging as we speak.
All election information was posted on this site
Thread FRA elections 2007
We were aware that some emails may not work due to such things as change of web addresses etc.
This is why we ask you to submit a new FRA membership form each year to pick up any changes.
I see the perennial subject of insurance has come up again as it does every year.
No organisation should operate with out insurance.
The FRA insurance is just a bit different to normal liability insurance that an event organiser has.(There would be no point in duplicating cover)
What you do not hear in public domain is how useful the FRA is to the event organisers.
Some events could not have been held in the years past without the FRA being in existance.
The FRA original pre member aims were to look after roboteers interests with
A. A common set of standards.
B. To represent roboteers in negotiations with TV companies. (last TV series no appearance monies were paid, Trophies were virtually non existent. Basically the TV companies treated the roboteers with contempt)
C. To try and keep our pastime going. It was obvious that the TV companies were just going to dump the lot of us. (Which is what happened)
Without the FRA you would have not recently gained the 13.6KG featherweight change. Some event organisers would have stayed at 12 KG while others may have moved to 13.6KG and therefore splitting all the featherweights in to two completely different classes.
This rule change came about because of roboteer power alone. The FRA governing body listened to your wishes and made it so.
The FRA likes everybody to be members to ensure a level playing field for all.
Should there be a legal dispute about rules we could only support a member of the FRA and not the person who is a non member who you could be the team that you are in the arena with. ( This is my personal take on a situation that could happen rather than a legal position. I am not a laywer and do not wish to get involved with any )
Roboteer members are the FRA. ( a lot of you voted in this years elections)
Should the membership decide that the FRA is a needless organisation it can be shut down.
No insurance and it would be shut down as no individual would be prepared to take the legal responsibility. Your democratic and elected governing body takes this responsibility on your behalf.
And of course no FRA, no forum.
Someone earlier posted that the FRA was struggling for members.
Untrue.
Membership numbers are down from our first year but that was expected.
What has been unexpected is that the original projection of member numbers would be about 40 for 2007 it was approx 80.
Also someone earlier brought up the subject of free speech on this forum again.
Untrue
This subject is covered else ware in the forum and on behalf of the forum administrator and moderator, I refute this allegation on their behalf and respectfully suggest that the writer apologise or submit written evidence so that it can be investigated.
I am going to have an enjoyable year as a roboteer knowing that at this time that the event organisers are comfortable with each other for the first time, and that they and the FRA are also at ease with each other.
On that note I gave the governing body notice that I will not be seeking another term as your president. (ends 31/03/2009)
Andy,
Just picking up on a couple of your points:
Correct me if Im wrong but wasnt the vote for 13.6kg weight limit just 6. Also, you have now created two weight classes of 12kg and 13.6kg as other event organisers have stayed at 12kg although they are non-combat. Perhaps one of the FRA aims to promote all things to do with robots and education should be revised to simply combat then I would understand. As it stands there are far more UK feathers at 12kg then 13.6 but the FRA chose to harmonize with other non-UK combat feathers.
I have no doubt and fully understand that the FRA likes everyone to be a member but I fail to understand the level playing field bit.
No FRA no forum, as has been seen, operating a forum is easily implemented, if the fRA hadnt done it then Im sure one of the competitors or EOs would have done it.
Just finally as I need to rush, the insurance policy is the single biggest overhead and is what most of the members £10 goes towards. Perhaps as it is frequently raised, an explanation of what the cover provides may help win over this perennial subject of insurance has come up again as it does every year
quote:
Without the FRA you would have not recently gained the 13.6KG
featherweight change.
That still is up to the EOs. If they say 12kg then the things that
change are that the EOs wont get a spot on the FRA website to advertise
and that they will have less feathers to compete with their events.
And that change, is it a good one? I myself have personaly always said,
especialy as a sideliner in the FRA, that I dont care, I just will build to
maximise the machine to the rules. And if possible beyond.
quote:
B. To represent roboteers in negotiations with TV companies. (last TV
series no appearance monies were paid, Trophies were virtually non existent.
Basically the TV companies treated the roboteers with contempt)
I dont know what series you participated in Andy, but I found the Mentorn
crew accomodating in most part. And my main tumbs up was the catering.
Especialy Series 7 was an enjoyment for me personaly.
Yes, there was no to little chance to pricemoney. But that was known. And
that doesnt change much from 90% of the European events.
If you want money, Robot wars isnt the way to go. Its a great way to learn
new skills, the learning curve is very steep. For most of us, its a great
group of diverse people to join and to challenge our own skills.
quote:
Also someone earlier brought up the subject of free speech on this forum
again.
The moderators arent to blame. But there is a reason the evilfacebook
page came into being, as well the alternative forum. What got surpressed by
one way or another. Its back, but seemingly dead.
Weres smoke there is a fire I dare to say, please investigate that issue.
quote:
I am going to have an enjoyable year as a roboteer knowing that at this
time that the event organisers are comfortable with each other for the first
time, and that they and the FRA are also at ease with each other.
I agree on that too. I dont like politics and politicians in daily life,
And I would like to avoid simular situations in my hobby.
Paul & Mario,
For two people who at this point are NOT members you certainly seem to have a lot to say on this subject.
I would like to know why the association should waste its time answering your questions when neither of you can be botherd for whatever reasons to join as menbers. Just maybe if you did, then we may be a little more willing to help you understand how and why we do what we do.
I for one am sick and tired of people who have no intention of paticipating in the running of the association thinking they have a god given right to take issue with every tiny point of order or action we take.
Instead of carping from the sidelines may I respectfully request that you do as Andy recomended in a previous post... I.E. Put up or shut up
(personaly I would have put it in stronger terms than that!)
Anyway, Im off for a couple of weeks of not having to worry about FRA or any other robot business, I just wanted say my piece before I went, and to add to Andys final comment, I too will not be seeking re-election as chairman after 31/03/2009.
Point of order: Mario is my teammember and as such covered.
He has just as much right to speak his mind as you. He only was not allowed to vote.
does anyone else wonder where the future of this sport will go? :sad:
Im not worried. To quote the master: Much ado about nothing.
Just 2 points;
1 - The vote for 13.6kg was thrown out twice by the FRA voting members, it took a membership vote at the AGM of 2;1 to persuade the committee to agree.
2 - The liability insurance is for the set of rules that we build and run to. Should an incident at an event occur, and all of the FRA guidelines were being adhered to, it is to protect the FRA members and EO from personal liability.
trev
I for one welcome the discussion. Carping or not, if we are not doing something right then maybe that is why?
Whatever you do, there are always those that take the free sample and never come back to buy the product. Maybe they didnt buy cause they didnt like the nuts? So next time lets try one without. Surely then everyone will like that piece?
The bottom line is, as a professional body the FRA exists as the roboteers. To remain this way, the insurance has to be paid for. Period. Without the FRA we have no standard ruleset so then the organisers have to provide them... Of course the rules would then become disjointed and event organisers would be personally liable for the content of that ruleset. Someone has to pay for the insurance and I dont see why any one person should have to put their own hand in their pocket for the benefit of others who do not. Of course we will always get those few who wont.
13.6Kg was important to ensure we continue forward with a unified ruleset. 12Kg falls within that and so it does not stop 12Kg robots competing at events. This also does not limit an event organiser running an event for 12Kg robots. That, at the end of the day, is their choice. I personally think we should have a 15Kg limit just because it is a nice round metric number.
I dont understand the reasons why M2 can no longer compete but I am sure if it is a simple weight issue that most event organisers would accomodate you Paul.
Very good points Kane.
As for the 13.6kg. At the time of the AGM i saw the option for various roboteers to get a feather in with a weapon when before they couldnt due to weight. That to me was the only reason I voted in favour of 13.6kg. Had the AGM voted for 10kg (also a nice metric figure Kane :) ) I would not have minded either.
Paul: What weight is M2 at the moment, does it cover the 102kg with gas rule?
most people i know run run at 104 with gas as they take advantage of the 2% rule, although i really dont agree with that its allowed in competitions.