Something to think about.

OK guys n gals: look at the picture in my profile. Thats Kashei Bessmertnye at only 7 kgs pushing the wheelchair and the lad forward at walking speed (the walking speed of a heatlhy adult).
And thats without any weight reduction yet !!!!! And with only 2 wheels (the end was scraping over the floor).

Project 2:Hexem was an 80 kgs robot in the 100 kgs era. Only because Mario and I were being maniacal about weight reduction (and I love to drill...).

I can sympathise with younglings who cannot find/fund sufficient parts to build a competitive feather but I doubt that giving an extra 1,5 kgs is going to make the difference, either financial or material.
What they and other aspiring roboteers need is good communication ! That is: finding the guy who has the interesting parts, getting to know the guy with the lathe, see what is available by asking others where to find stuff, communication, communication, communication. Thats what this forum is for !!!

Sorry for the rant but Ive heard the same excuses many times before and I respond as I always do... go ask the right questions.

When I said theyd given up what I mean was to build to a 12 Kg limit. We have four feathers that are well over the 12Kg. If they spent £40 on NiMH instead of using second hand lead acid batts from burglar alarms they certainly could get closer to 12Kg. Here the youngsters still have fun with feathers but we use the 6Kg class and the about 12Kg class. Remember these are 13 year olds so its as not easy for them. And 1.5kg DOES make a critical difference, its over 10% of the robots weight

I personally am not infavour of any of the options. I am far closer to number 2 than anyother but i believe the option to change the weight limit should be left available if ever in the future it is felt necessary. Or is that included in number 2 already?
Regards
Ian

Rob, you say that they have 6kg class and almost 12kg class. so... if you can get the robots into 6kg, why cant you get tem just under 12? Steel frames are still very good, i have just finished making mine for PloughBot and i had titanium available for it. I think if there is to be a new weight class at all, it should be measured on prices and power allowed to be used in the robot etc.
i.e Only 12v allowed
300w total motor power in the robot( depending on use of phnumatics)
Limited materials
No brushles motors etc
This would make things easy for newcomers to get into, and this will really shoqw creativity and skills of the roboteers.

Grant

The Rex Robot Challenge is based on that idea. Limited power for motors and weapons.

But the thing we can do, to make an entry class- and thats not needed according to me, if one want to play, be creative- just take 1 cheap battery. 12V 2 Ah or simular SLA and other energysources in the machine.
This can be with some creativity a very powerfull machine in even the Full expensive feathers.

Im Glad to see people putting thier views on here, even though I woundnt mind the 12.5kg change Im just as happy to stay with 12 and most people who posted on here want it to stay the same, which is not the impression I had with talking to a few people but at the end of the day the majority rule (should!).

Limiting power and other things wont change things too much, at the end of they day Little Flipper should have made that point by winning the last event. It runs of 12V drill motors and gearboxes, ok the gearboxes plastic case was changed to Ally. It was very slow. The ram was found in the scrap as where all the fittings.

All we actually bought for this was the Valve from Technobots and the speed controllers. The speed controllers were 20 pounds from the local model shop off standard RC cars. We used 1mm Ti Armour simply becasue we had some bits. The base plate was nylon and we had some ally supports like G3s for strengh. Oh no forgetting the CO2 bottle from Jonno. We already had the Rx & Tx so its about as cheap as you can make.

We also brought Little Hitter to that event with an IBC for control, a valve costing over 200 pounds, a regulator bought in the states for about 70 pounds, 2 30V drills from B&Q for 50 pounds each for the motors and gears. All new fittings from Farnell, we even bought the polypro armour (no Ti left:sad:). PCM Tx & Rx, Rack/pinion gears from HPC, all in all a quite expensive featherweight and it drove to the other side of the Arena and blew up before its first fight even started.

I know we have a small machine shop in the garage but its quite possible to build competitive robots without the expense.

(Oh, in case I fogot to mention I think the members of the FRA have done a very good job and I know how hard you all worked in getting the organisation up and running and in time I hope other people realise all the work involved. If people want to critisise how things are run then I suggest you offer your ideas and help implementing them, if its sensible Im sure the FRA will listen when you turn up to one of thier meetings. Im sure if you offer to minute the meeting it wont be refused)

I agree with Rob on this one. It is very hard to build a Featherweight from scratch (and when I say scratch, all you pedantic farts, I mean NO background in Roboteering or RC and very few engineering skills.) for under £100. Robot combat is a very steep learning curve unto itself. Even the likes of Teams Storm and Kat, to name just 2 of the many FRA/RW veterans, still haven€™t reached the pinnacle (Though you would thought they€™re all reasonably close). I took to doing a very rough pricing for a WSW ram-bot (With out borrowing, sponsorship or stealing.). Here are my results:

£60- 3 Channel 40 MHz Fm Radio
£40 - Speedos*2
£6 - WSW motors*2
£10 - 12v Battery
£10 - Steel (legs and sheet)
£15 - Polycarbonate

£141 - Total

Almost £150. Never mind the tools. What about the people who don€™t have access to half decent tools? The only tools in the house toolbox downstairs at my house are

Half a dozen spanners
Half a dozen assorted screwdrivers
Couple of fuses
A pair of pliers
And a measuring tape.

Not exactly robot building tools, and unlike Rob€™s students some people may not be able to guarantee access basic workshop tools. This would mean buying them. More money spent again.

So don€™t just go round saying €œIt€™s easy to build a competitive featherweight without expense€. Sit there and think how well off you are first. True, you probably earned it, but that don€™t change the last sentence.

However I am quite thankful for this forum, as it provides everyone with an equal access to technical information and help, FRA member or not.

For the sake of argument, if the weight was to change to 13.6kg how would that help you, what would you differantly to how you are currently doing it? I cant see how 1.6kg is going to help.

The fact is that you need to commit yourself fully if you are going to build a robot at a young age *stares at zeros in his bankbook* nothing is really going to help you. If someone really wants to build a robot at about 13, you need to be fully commited to it both in the short and long term, and dont think its going to be easy on the checkbook.

That is why this forum (and others) is so important. You can ask if there are people in your neighbourhood who have better tools or who can make parts for you. Sometimes a daytrip is needed to visit a roboteers workshop. Along the way you will be acquiring some tools...

Examples:
- A young Dutch roboteer borrowed Marios pillar drill for more than a year and it is now being used in another Dutch roboteers workshop.
- We sometimes visit a young one with our tools and spend a nice afternoon tinkering together.
- Mario makes parts, you all know that, but with the younger ones he tries to find a solution that will not hurt their piggy bank (except when theyre asking for the moon and more).
- We can offer young roboteers free parts in return for a weekend (or week) of spring cleaning in our house (since my illness incapacitates me).

Tools can be collected by asking for it at birthdays and such. Buy 1 piece at a time (thats how I did it, especially before I met Mario).

Dont think that it is financially easy for adult roboteers dear youngsters. Just when we think we have the cash to acquire a certain part all kinds of bills start deluging our little home - more often than not its taxes or other governmental theft.
(You know the saying: Dont steal, the government hates competition.)

Why do you think we started building our featherweight Kashei Bessmertnye more than a year ago and have started driving with a test set-up only last weekend ? Now we need a weapon and armour and we can start building it for real. Probably next summer or so.

If you can build a 6Kg one you can build a 12Kg one
We use free speed controllers and motor drives systems from scrapped radio contol cars/houserobots in our 6Kg robots. Too weak for the 12+ kgs. (pics on http://www.xenomania.co.ukwww.xenomania.co.uk)

Is everythng is OK in the featherweight world?The facts speak for themselves. Look at how many new feathereweight teams have appeared in the last twelve months? We are hardly overrun with new blood (in the UK anyway)Is it better in Oz I wonder.

Babeth. If it takes more than 18 months to build one then your going to be well gutted when it gets chopped to bits by vortex, scorpion jnr or another nasty spinner!! :) Ive personally seen those robots destroy feathers in seconds. If teams CAN use genuine scraps like heavy wiper motors, scraps of steel plate, heavy ex burglar alarm sla batteries, home made microswitch controllers, the robot will be heavier but much cheaper to replace. I bought a second hand arc welder for £15 from a car boot for steel welding but you need much more expensive kit for aluminium.
I noticed Kashei Bessmertney uses a nicad pack. My students could never afford nicads....and if we waited 18 months for them to finish their robots the kids would have left school. We only have lunchtimes, twice a week.

Maybe we need a radical approach to this. A new entry class at 13.6Kg? Limited costs? Limited age category?
Just some thoughts!

Rob, the cells that you see on Kashei are old UPS Hawker Cyclon SLA 2V 2.5Ah cells. Recycled from Compaq brand UPS systems. One of the belgian roboteers had a line to the remover.Those UPS systems get a replacement every 2 years.
Those are replaced by one of our Heavyweight PBQ 12V 9 Ah batteries.

And the reason Kashei is still in the build, is that Im having more work than only building a feather for ourselfs.
Remodeling a house ,inventing new ways for weaponsystems, and building them.And of course a normal permanent nightshift job.

And when Kashei is finished, it will be put against other feathers like Vortex or Scorpion Junior or even worse. Without any problems in the fact he could be destroyed in mere seconds. The only result will be that I will curse myself by building it that bad.

Personally, if we€™re talking about an entry level to roboteering or starting a new weight category, the hobby weight debate might kick back up again€¦

*thinks* :uhoh:
Dear God!!!!! Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!

Anyway, as we were saying. Personally, I think creating another category at the featherweight weight limit (possible or otherwise) would undermine it, myself, but there you are.

Though if you were thinking imposing limits, these seem fair to me:

Max voltage: 24V
Max motor power: 500w per motor
No brushless motors on spinners.
Max pneumatics pressure: 16 bar
Banned materials: Performance RC battery packs, Titanium, Hardox, etc.
Spinners cannot:
Be more than 24€ in length at any point.
Spin over 500 rpm.
Weigh more than 20% of the weight limit.

Though someone will no doubt object. But there we are. By the way:

Rob: http://www.combatchip.comwww.combatchip.com is down :sad:. Is there any chance you could post me the URL to the shop linking off the site?

Elizabeth: What a gorgeous name :). However you mentioned an incapacitating illness:sad:. What kind exactly?

Combatchip is no more. 4 hits a week doesnt justify £20 per year!! I havent renewed it.

@ Ceri: Elisabeth is my official name but I prefer Babeth which is shorter and more difficult to mispronounce. I have ME (a.k.a. chronic fatigue syndrome) and fibromyalgia.

It seems that our featherweight and heavyweight may never come off the ground because Mario makes so many parts for other people (in order to have the finances to build ours) and he sometimes takes other peoples robots in for an overhaul. Time is a most precious and rare commodity in this house.

@ Rob: The point I was trying to make is that even for adult roboteers its not always easy to come up with a robot just like that and many of us have in fact the very same problems as students, i.e. lack of finances, tools, time and materials. But we communicate, negotiate and co-operate. And that is why we have now a community of roboteers.

Mario has invented a formula that perfectly describes the problem:
time + money = robot.

Based on that you can say:
(+time) + (+money) = (+robot)
(+time) + (-money) = (-robot)
(-time) + (+money) = (-robot)
(-time) + (-money) = (0robot)

You can add creativity, materials and tools to the equation, like for instance:
(+time) + (+creativity) + (-money) = (+robot)

Instead of time one can use patience. And that is a valuable lesson for youngsters because they are going to need loooots of it when trying to find and keep a job. Consider it an education. Which is exactly what life is all about, really.

Geoff, you posted on Sunday, 06 February, 2005
quote:

Any possable changes to the weight limit are due to be discussed at the next FRA committee meeting, due to take place on 12/02/05.
We will let you all know the outcome shortly afterwards.
How soon is shortly?

The full version will be published in the minuets, but the feeling at the meeting was that the weight limit should remain at 12Kg for the foreseeable future.

minuets?????
I look forward to the Committees performance. Will you all dress up for it? :proud:

Geoff

Does that meet the committee favoured option 1? A quick tally of the above posts since you posted the four options gave 1 for option 1, 14 for option 2 and none for option 3 or 4 (if I read them correctly). If so, there must have been plenty of postal votes for option 1!!

Personally I would have preferred the outcome to be decisive and not greyed by foreseeable future, e.g. nothing wrong with saying it will be reviewed again in 3 years time.

Paul

Paul,
You seem to miss the point, it was NOT up for a vote. It was mearly on the agenda to be discussed amongst the committee. Taking all the options into account the overwhelming majority view was that the current 12Kg limit doesnt need to be changed.
There are no plans to re-visit this subject, unless of course the membership formaly ask for a rule change as allowed for in our constitution.

Geoff.

:)