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We have all used 40MHz sets for many years and know how many problems we have with them. New roboteers should not be encouraged to purchase radio sets that simply do not do the job. Even if they are a few pounds cheeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2xt
The action certainly is not draconian. We simply need to move forward. I know of several incidents that would have been potentially prevented had 2.4GHz sets been available/ used.
According to the minutes it was unanimously voted on, and now appears on the Rules page of the website worded in such a way that implies it is definite.Quote:
as i understand it has only been proposed and will be discussed further at the next meeting
If I was a new builder, I agree that it would make more sense to buy a 2.4GHz set than a 40MHz set because, as has been stated, its cheaper than buying most new 40MHz sets and provides you with the reliability of signal. I was also aware of the section of the rules encouraging new builders to move to 2.4GHz as and when they can but I wasn't anticipating making such a change personally for maybe a year or two. If I had ~£70 put by for robot bits I would rather spend that on getting either a Sabretooth or Scorpion than a 2.4GHz set, purely because my current radio set has never caused any problems therefore changing it wouldn't lead to improved control the same way as upgrading, say, the electronics would.
Jamie, you have mainly experienced the RC events which due to the nature of the arena only have limited numbers in each fight, which may explain why you have never had any problems.
With the other arenas running feathers is a different game. We want to put on a show at the same time as encourage feather builders. If RR and RL limited the number of feathers per fight, most would only have 1 fight per weekend not 3 or 4 as is usually the case, and only a few feathers looks silly in a large arena. So personally i think limiting the number of robots is counter productive to the hobby for all involved EOs and roboteers. To have a safer environment for roboteers, arena marshals and others is a must, we all accept that what we do has an inherant danger but we must try to reduce the risk.
Switching to 2.4Ghz is the safer option. I would say that most people have now taken the option to switch, at the last RL event Tx control had less than a hand full of fighting robots on 40Mhz.
Kane - what problems are these that you refer to that are as a direct result of a failing of the 40MHz technology and not of human error? Of course 40MHz does the job and has done for nearly 10 years and the action of the FRA is draconian in every sense in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by kane
You say that new Roboteers should be encouraged to purchase 2.4GHz, fine no problem but what about all of those 'retired' or infrequent Roboteers with bots in their garages that the FRA apparently what to encourage back? The FRA has put another obstacle in the way. I do not believe that the FRA can demonstrate that 40MHz is inherently unsafe and if and it's a big if, 2.4GHz interfers with 40MHz, then the FRA failed by permitting that technology be introduced without first removing 40MHz from the arena.
This decision should be made by the EO, not the FRA. The FRA should only recommend a technology unless it can demonstrate that alternative technologies are unsafe. Perhaps the FRA would like to publish its report into the reasons behind the exclusion of 40MHz. That way I/we can better understanding the thought process that the FRA went through.
From the accounts given to me by the roboteers involved, the problem occurs when a large amount of transmitters are turned on, e.g. more than 10. What happens then varies, but in some cases the robot doesn't failsafe but responds erratic, changes direction, and even fires the weapon. If that is the case then there is a real risk factor.
A very simple test for this. Put a single robot on 40 MHz in the arena and drive it, and switch on 10-15 spektrums on, one at the time and see what happens. If the problem is with the Spektrums that would show it.
From what I've gathered it also happens in the link up stage. Even if other robots are switched on and waiting in the arena, as long as they stand still no power goes to the motors, so suppression issues on the motors is a unlikely candidate in this case. Interference from the ESC's could be a factor, but then that would happen with 10-15 40MHz machines just like it would with 10-15 Spektrum machines.
I think this calls for more investigation.
As with all things, it's down to the descression of the event organiser who they allow to run.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2xt
Agreed but the FRA has made it an absolute ban on 40MHz so should an EO decide to run 40MHz, then the FRA will no doubt play their insurance card again!
I do wonder at times at how the FRA reaches these decisions, come on let's see the reasoning behind it before I am forced to chuck 4 perfectly good radios, two of which have been modifed to suit the bots. Money that could have been spent on better things for the bot. I wonder if 2.4 gig hadn't been approved by ofcom in the UK, the FRA would have been so anxious to ban 40MHz?
What about the problems that have been reported by a few roboteers about bind issues with spektrum technology?
Personally I have had problems with the spektrum receiver causing hornets disc to fire erratically because the receiver uses far more current than some BECs can provide.
Don't get me wrong, I am all up for pushing the sport forward but I still don't see the logic in banning a technology that works well and has done for many years.
In an Ideal world all would agree the new 2.4GHz systems are far better and if writting the rules from scratch the older type '40MHz' sets should not be allowed. Personnally I dont have a problem with this, but when a lot of respected people voice their concerns of an out right ban I think it needs looking into. Maybe what it should say is that all new robots should use 2.4GHz/459MHz systems and if you want to use something else contact the EO first.
Since this appears to have missed the usual consultation peroid with its members that major rule changes go though I guess its too late now anyway.
All very valid points Mark. I agree that if the rules were being written from scratch with the current technology usage, then no longer permitting 40MHz would most likely feature. I admit that 2.4GHz is certainly much better, barring the reported bind problems and other small issues that Gary mentioned.
Aside from this new rule resulting in a lot of 40MHz sets getting 'chucked' (unless we all took up RC boats - I'm only interested in that if I can fit my drum on it :twisted: ) I reckon some of the grief may also have stemmed from the fact that, as you state, the proposal of this rule seems to have missed the consulation period with the membership and the first anyone heard about it (to my knowledge) was when Rob posted it at the beginning of this thread.
That sounds like a sensible and much more reasoned way to approach the situation. If rules can be written, then they should be able to be reviewed and re-written easily enough.Quote:
when a lot of respected people voice their concerns of an out right ban I think it needs looking into. Maybe what it should say is that all new robots should use 2.4GHz/459MHz systems and if you want to use something else contact the EO first.
To those who have also raised objections to/questioned the need for the new rule (Paul, Grant, Gary etc); what do you think Mark's statement? Would you agree with that or would you still like to see either
a) tests carried out to determine if multiple 2.4GHz usage is the problem, or
b) 40MHz to remain in the rules for people to use freely from 2010?
I personally wouldn't mind so much allowing people currently operating on 40MHz the discretion of staying on 40MHz with encouragement for new builders to plump for 2.4GHz; just curious to see how the rest of us feel?
And Ed, you are correct, I have only really experienced the slightly smaller RC events, having not yet made it to an RL or RR event so I don't have any bigger experiences to draw conclusions from. Out of the 11 events I've attended since starting out, I've never really had any major problems though of the nature described - maybe I just got lucky with a damn good Tx/Rx combo :D