To be honest with you, I think a dog clutch like the one in a car gearbox would work better in this situation over a double clutch because they're designed to engage at high speed unlike a gear.
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To be honest with you, I think a dog clutch like the one in a car gearbox would work better in this situation over a double clutch because they're designed to engage at high speed unlike a gear.
Check my site for the latest stats.
I replaced the double clutch with a dog clutch(though I may reuse the double clutch should someone help me increase its reliability), and increased the known KJ count of the rim.
...couple of things Mark:
- Out of curiosity Andy put the figures for your ring through a kinetic energy calculator, and came up with a figure in the region of 350kj. This is not a good thing, with that much energy you are going to destroy just about any clutch you try and put that energy through, and if your weapon hits anything vaguely solid I'd be willing to bet the robot would never work quite the same again, the forces involved would break something - at best your weapon, at worst your entire chassis and drivetrain would be warped out of shape as well.
- I freely admit I don't know much about clutches, but I do know a bit - particularly about dog clutches - and I know enough to be 95% sure that you don't know what you're really talking about, like I said above with the energy you have trying to use any sort of clutch is only going to end in something being broken.
I'm almost certain that you just think this is a cool idea and haven't thought about the practicalities of it at all...sometimes it's best to go with simpler designs, time and time again you have tried to do complex designs and your lack of knowledge has completely ruined a good idea. I'd stay away from complex systems for now and just stick to simple designs that don't require much specialist thinking to understand and implement :P
I started out with a wedge that had a disc; it had crap stats and it came 2nd in VFT4 Pinball. :proud:
I modified it again. The main difference now is that the rim's speed is now 25% the speed it previously was. What would be the KJ count for that?
I'd avoid using a dog clutch purely on the premise that they work in a very very rough and impacting manner. They are indeed using in race car gearboxes, but require double clutching and rev matching (The method of matching the motor rpm with the gearbox rpm by blipping the throttle during gear change) for smooth shifts (Requiring a high degree of skill!).
To make a dog clutch that will handle the forces your looking at will be quite heavy, and may even have issues engaging due to the differences speed differences between your kinetic mass and the drive/weapon.
For Infusion, I chose to use Electro-magnetic clutches (emc), these will slip to some degree, but are very reliable. Depending on the size/design, they can handle a fair amount of power. Most car air conditioner pumps have emc's that can handle 3-4HP loads with clamping speeds between 800rpm right up to 6000rpm. The Toyota SC12/SC14 supercharger units have emc's that handle 8-10hp (roughly the parasitic load from running these units on the motor), I have no idea how long they would last if your turning them on and off every few seconds, but they could be a possible solution.
The robot has, again, been updated with an EMC clutch.
electro magnetic clutch clutch?
Redone... Again...
Again, you're using parts without knowing how exactly they're going to affect your bot's performance...
Go simpler, Mark...pretty much everybody started out with simple designs...
I can't help it. I just want some way to have both a flipper and drive boost in the same robot.
Have you given any thought as to why real life robots tend not to have a flipper and drive boost in the same robot?
I would do...before coming up with a design ask yourself how much this idea has been used in real life - and if it hasn't, think why. If something offered a definite advantage half the robots competing today would use it.
What about syncromesh? That should work on the drive perfectly well but the weapon would probably be way too slow to respond due to the time taken to match speeds.Quote:
To make a dog clutch that will handle the forces your looking at will be quite heavy, and may even have issues engaging due to the differences speed differences between your kinetic mass and the drive/weapon.
@Mark: I don't think you'll have enough weight to do both. Infusion is pretty boarder line on the weight limit with just the sprinning rim, KE boost drive and a wedge. I just cannot see where I would get the weight to add 20kg of parts/mechanisms to incorporate a Warrior SKF flipper into it.Quote:
I can't help it. I just want some way to have both a flipper and drive boost in the same robot.
If you so keen on having a boost function, why not look at a voltage boost. Run extra batteries that can be switched on for breif periods of time to overvolt your drive motors. IE: Run magmotors on 24v primary battery pack, have a secondary 12v battery pack wired up in series with a switch. When the switch is activated, the motor will now run from the 24v pack + the 12v pack, providing 36v. This will increase the motors powered 2.25 times and if it's used for small bursts, you can minimize the chances of burning the motor out.
@Jordan: Syncromesh don't like being meshed under load. In a car gearbox they are unloaded when you depress the clutch, they then mesh and line up the gears for a smoother change and then you can let the clutch out and transfer the power. 99.9% of cars made from the 80's onwards will have syncromesh in them, go for a drive an try to change gears without the clutch. It can be done by accelerating, lifting off and then trying to engage the gear when the motor revs fall to the revs of the gearbox, but 8/10 times you'll still crunch it.
Whoops! I completely forgot about the clutch in the drive train.
I feel silly now :blush:
Don't feel silly Jordan, you're sensible enough to not actually try designing these things :proud:
How much detail is necessary in a vapour bot description for mechanisms etc. ?
For you see I have some designs for robot weapons like an electric hammer robot and an electric flipper robot which both use snail gears (similar to John Reid's Beta but with gear teeth instead of chain). I was just wondering if I had to design it down to the last gear or if just the general gist of it would suffice.
As long as people have a general understanding of how it would work, I'm sure it would be fine, Jordan. :)
If people question it, then you can go into the long-winded description of it, lol
Generally if it gives you an advantage, be it through making something better or nullifying some weak spot in the robot, you describe it in as much detail as possible :P
In this case, many people would scratch their heads and say 'what does that mean'? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by joeychevron
Cyrilium 5 is now up. Cyrilium Mach 4 is a goner.
As much as I hate to admit it, Mark, that is a very decent design. As always, though, there are a few problems (courtesy of Dave Weston)
1) 2200mAh is nowhere near good enough for a HW. Heck, antweights have more than that! You'd need at least 5 times that. At LEAST. And do remember that 1000mAh = 1A.
2) You might want to switch to SLAs instead of NiCads but that's just Dave.
3) Where are the lifting arm and axe positioned? How can the axe put out 650kg of force?
4) Strengths/weaknesses again? Sigh...
Well he's got three 2200mah packs, which is 6600mah...to me that seems slightly pushing it for a quartet of overvolted Mags and a pair of actuators, but I'd say that would be enough for 95% of the fights you're likely to be in (lots and lots of ramming and lifting might run them down to a standstill)
P.S. which ants are these that run 2200mah? Jigsaw ran 350mah at the AWS and that was considered a bit excessive :P
I wouldn't put my faith in 6600mAh to be honest, although I'm basing that on old SLA mAh ratings needed for heavyweights; Nicads and A123s certainly being able to run heavyweights with less mAh. What about using 3Ah cells for each pack, thereby having 9Ah (9000mAh) in total? Would be a bit more of a safety barrier.
sorry Joey, I messed up and thought Satanix was an AW. It was actually Stewie I was thinking of. :P Apologies.
SLA's?! Lets all go back a century or two technologically :rofl: NiCD and Lithium provide a much better peak amps and storage capacity over SLA's for weight and size.Quote:
Originally Posted by kodster
1: That's 2200mAh per pack, and since all packs are 30v packs, they're run in parallel to get 6600mAh total. But anyways, I've upped them to 3000mAh packs.
2: No... Only the oldest heavyweight robots tun off of SLAs(With a few exceptions, mainly Jack Orr's prototype robots). And I'm listening to Aaron's advice.
3: Look at the revised stats. The axe system is a modified version of the one used on Hydra, which put out 660kgs, and this one uses a bigger ram, but puts out less power.
4: They're supposed to be redundant.
Still a bit small; even in my old heavyweights back in 2004 I used at least 3600mah, but whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by corsair_lightning
Quote:
Originally Posted by corsair_lightning
Mark, Cabrakan runs off of SLAs, and they suit him quite well.Quote:
Originally Posted by knightrous
Heard of Hawkers, Aaron? :P
Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by corsair_lightning
Exactly. So don't put them there. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by corsair_lightning
I was going to point Hawkers out myself :P there's very very few nicads you can get 1000 amp peak currents from...
The main advantage of NiCads and etc, as I've said, is they have more capacity for the same weight of SLAs.
The reason they're redundant is because they're masking the machine's true weaknesses.
Yep, got a pair of them at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by kodster
Sure, Hawkers can provide a lot of peak current but for size and weight, A123's are better. My Hawkers are 12AH (900amp peak) and weight 6KG each. I can use 8 x 4Cell A123's which gives me a 13.2v 18.4AH (960amps peak) battery for only ~3.2KG.
The only real worth benefit is SLA's are pretty easy to look after, don't require cell balancing or specialized chargers. The 'advantages' doesn't even do anything in vapours though...
So, why would you use SLA's in a vapourbot :rofl:
Emergency ballast during worldwide imaginary Hardox shortage?
Concerning batteries in HW.
SLA is far from obsolete in HW, whenever you need serious amperage's, you cannot beat an SLA with any type of other battery. Not Nicad, Not NiMh, not LiPo, not A123.
All the newer types of batteries, rely on setting them in parallel, to up the max output. The only advantages you have with the newer type of batteries is weight. I still have 2 heavies with SLA in them, Mantis mk2 and RCC2. I won't even consider moving these to a different type of battery, SLA is perfect for them.
I know that in vapourbots the batteries are kind of an enigma, but don't assume that because a technology is older it doesn't have advantages. Not a lot of people know that a mechanical speed controller is more powerful and less prone to failure then an electronic speed controller, because hardly anyone uses them anymore since ESC's are more energy efficient. That doesn't make mechanical speed controllers bad or unusable.
For the most bang for your buck, SLA is still a very viable option. If you are pressed for weight, NiCad, NiMh, or A123 is the way to go.
Leo, stand back, back away from the SLA's, let them go :lol: :wink:
Other issues with 95% of SLA's is the way they are AH rated, I know the 7 & 12amp units I had were rated at those capacities when drained over 20hrs. Hence when people started switching over from SLA to NiCD they found they could run on nearly half the capacity (7.2AH Nicd's instead of 15AH SLA's).
after reading these i feel like an idiot now cos ive started a series and i was so excited to see the vapourbots comps and wanted todo mine its practically gone wrong
right i need some help on improving my matches heres to examples from my series crazy bots (that may be cancelled cos i dont know if any 46 people wanna enter but 1 person can enter 46 if they want but it be very unfair cos they would have a 100 per cent chance of winning)
1st will be mortis vs firestorm vs panic attack vs storm 2
3....2.....1... ACTIVATE
storm 2 charges firestorm across the arena and slams it into the wall as mortis hammer axe blows down on panic attack
storm 2 is flipped by firestorm and panic attack turns morts over but self-rights and slams its axe down again but it gets wedged inside panic attacks top armour, firestorm charges at panic attack and flips it over, taking mortis with it
storm 2 pushes firestorm into the wall once again and activates the pit release, the house robots charge at firestorm but firestorm reverses into the pit storm 2 smashes panic attack against the wall and turns him over in a position it cannot self right as mortis hammers its underbelly and pushes it down the pit
CEASE mortis and storm 2 proceed
2nd battle is chaos 2 vs hypno disc vs razer vs behemoth
3......2.......1.... ACTIVATE
chaos 2 hurls hypno disc in to the air and lands with a crash and behemoth overturns razer and pins it down, hypno disc self rights but OMG chaos 2 hurls hypno disc out in spectacular fashion razer self rights and behemoth tips chaos 2 over on its side and pushed towards mr pshyco who lifts chaos 2 over the pit and drops it as razer activates the pit
OMG chaos out in the 1ST round, now razer crumples matlida as behemoth flips shunt,
CEASE
any tips and help is welcome
Ok, some tips, both for your tournaments and your battles.
For your tournaments, be prepared to not get, say, over 16 people. Something like 8 people would be good to aim for for your 1st tournament. You can ask for a set number of robots per entrant, 4 perhaps, to get 4*8=32 robots. Mention these numbers in the opening post of a tournament (not nescessairly these exact numbers), and say what we can enter, what weight class, and what weight bonuses there are (shuffler? walker? tracks?... hovercraft?). Say how many heats there will be (if any), how many robots per heat and how they will fight (1 on 1, 4 way melee?), and what will follow after the heats are over. Say how your Judges' Decissions work (public voting is fine, but be prepared that you wont get 5 people voting in 5 minutes, sometimes if you wish to get 5 people to vote you'll be waiting for some days, thats simply how it sometimes works around here). Say if there are seeds (a bunch of real robot seeds for a new tournament is something unusual, but I cant see much against it myself actually). Maybe you also want to describe the arena, or have some additional rules about our robots.
For a some good examples of this, you may wanna check the opening post of the latest PTT viewtopic.php?f=201&t=2463&start=0 , or perhaps C&B4 <a class=postlink-local href=http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/foru...t=2586&start=0
Quick question. I've been toying with the idea of an interchangeable cluster 'bot. That is, a cluster 'bot with several different 50 KG robots, which can be swapped around. The question is, would this actually be legal under tournie rules?
No. Because if you had some damage from a previous round, then you could just swap out that robot for a fresh one which would not be failr towards the other competitors who do not have this option. It would be like me entering 1 robot and having 5 identical robots standing in the car as backup.Quote:
Originally Posted by pcbore
Richard managed to get away with it with Double Killa 2...