New year message from the FRA

Tim


I€™m sorry you feel you can€™t join the FRA I know there has been some bad blood between some people in the community just before I joined I don€™t know what its about, and I don€™t think going over old ground would help. I have had times when people have been less than kind to me in my life. Without seeming trite or shallow have you considered forgiving them un-conditionally? I know this approach to the lingering pain of rejection and hurt worked for me. Don€™t let your obvious pain stop you from being a part of the FRA community. It takes a bigger man to stop the hating. Hope this helps.


Craig
:)

I fully echo your sentiments Craig. In the past I have directly locked horns with those closest to me - even in the roboteering community. The initial fallout is painful but with understanding and forgiveness relationships have been repaired and have gone from strength to strength.

(And we all raise our glasses and sing Auld Lang Syne at the top of our voices :))

(Message edited by anukhet on January 06, 2008)

i too will agree craig well put.

Craig,

apologies but you are missing my point - this is not about me.

I am attempting to promote general discussion (hence not originally commenting on my position until questioned).

John is spot on when he says that our sport is on the edge of survival - so, my question is why potentially risk alienating any of our semi-active or occasional roboteers? I do not want to see us lose a single team or individual from the community as a result of this change in policy

Craig, those that know me know that I am not one to hold a grudge and one of the people who has tried to maintain the peace on many occasions in the past. I have absolutely no hate to stop.

Could I ask please for the discussion to move away from me (as an individual) to the general point of mandatory membership and the potential implications of such as per my original post

I can see where you are coming from Tim with your comments and I thank you for bringing up the discussion.

I think I would consider myself to be an occasional roboteer. I can only attend events once in a blue moon for two reasons, distance and the fact that I build spinners.

I am happy to pay £10 to be a member of the FRA for a few reasons,

- Our sport is on the ropes. Yes it has got far better in recent years and the future does look bright, but it could well only take 6 to 9 months of bad events to kill it off completely.

- I believe in the aims of the FRA. There are occasions that sometimes make me question the FRA but then I remind myself that these are generally down to a few small individuals. The overwhelming majority of roboteers are a great bunch.

- £10 isnt a huge amount when you consider that the majority of the components in my machine cost triple that at least.

- I get another card for my wallet which always makes for interesting conversation whenever someone takes a look in it.

ur last point is funny :rofl:

Gary,

I agree entirely and wholeheartedly in the aims of the FRA

I also have no issue at all with the cost of membership (and I would imagine that most of the community are of the same mindset)

I also believe in freedom of choice - something which this move does not promote*.

Hopefully I am worrying unduly and everyone who wants to participate in events is also willing to join the FRA - but, in my opinion, we should never have got to a position of enforced membership and the offering made by the FRA (both in its aims and the implementation of those aims) should have sold itself to everyone in the community for the right reasons.

Reaffirming my previous post - if we were to lose a single team or individual as a result of this policy change then sadly, for me, the FRA will have failed in its aims



-1>*as per my original post - my understanding is that when the FRA was formed it was very much against the replication of the robot wars club and this feels very much like an evolution towards a similar concept to me

If someone feels strongly against joining then surely they could get in contact with the event organisers to sort something out?

I cant see anyone turning away a team if there are good reasons.

The aims of the FRA are numerous and interlinking therefore I cannot see that this single decision would cause the FRA to fail in its aims two of which being To represent roboteer interests in negotiations with other bodies and to To provide consistency with regard to open event safety, arenas and robot build rules. The FRA works for its members and that is why we join.

To join or not to join. I admit to being cynical at times but I cannot see that event organisers requiring that participating teams are FRA members would be any reason in itself to cause member teams to quit - there are many more important issues such as cost/time/etc that have already caused many to give up and will continue to do so.

The way I see it the FRA is similar to the FIA. You pay for your racing license to the FIA, and to race on you local circuit you pay the racing club. From that standpoint, a 10 pounds is peanuts compared to an FIA license.

What is not exactly clear to me is the FRAs professional indemnity insurance. Specificlally who does it protect and against what? And as an non-uk member, does that protection also apply to me?

Tim
Thanks for your response

Ok lets take your point €œto my understanding is that when the FRA was formed it was very much against the replication of the robot wars club€ Can anyone find any information to confirm this was an original aim. Its not that I don€™t believe you are sincere, but as with my memory sometimes what was discussed in passing seems like it was €˜cast in concrete€™. Similarly this point may have been discussed but not adopted in the final policy draft. If it is, you have a serious point. If it isn€™t them I can€™t see any further mileage in it.

Can you acknowledge, the FRA have to drive standards for health and safety forwards, dose this decision not comply with the spirit of the line €œTo provide consistency with regard to open event safety€ if we all had the same insurance cover would this not be consistent with that phrase?

I also believe in personal freedom of choice, but would you agree that this has to be balanced with our corporate responsibility as a movement especially on maters of safety to the general public?

If you feel you cannot join the FRA then I for one would completely respect that decision. Perhaps as a way forward if you could find out the type of insurance cover that is afforded by FRA membership then replicate this from another source then you would be complying fully with the safety issue, and I€™m sure no event organiser would turn you away, this information could be shared so others with similar views to yourself could be covered, this would extend the freedom of choice to the whole robot community.

With regard to forgiveness I may be wrong but in my experience this kind of discussion is the tangent to a deeper and more painful problem!

When I was hurt by past events I didn€™t want answers to questions I just want to pick a fight! This may not be you but could it be someone you know? If I am wrong please forgive me I€™m only trying to help.

the way i look at it is that its only £10 per year, i also dont always agree on what the fra say or do, but deep down i know their main interests is the sport,
plus you have alot of people who give up their own time to keep this sport going and at a guess they sometimes find themselves out of pocket. its the same as when i have been to events, sure organisers may make a few quid from a show but i look at what they do to run an event and think is it really worth all this hassle? if they decided to give up where would it leave us?
i know nothing about forums but im guessing that this isnt free to maintain and run?, yet it is used by us all members or non. And being part of the FRA, surely you have to deal with some crap when things kick off on here, The amount of money i have saved in the past when i have gone to buy something and saved money by reading past posts on here first. i am also a member of a car owners club and just to post on their forum you have to be a member which costs £30 per year, and all you get is a crappy sticker for your car, nothing else, no news letter or anything.
i understand that not everyone wants to be a member i just find it hard to imagine why not, its a tenner or 83p per month! I also appreicate that if it wasnt for us robot builders their would be no fra, and it costs us to build and maintain these things, but hey what else would we be doing, i would probably be fishing or learning to knit lol.
thats my 10 pence worth.

also, this compulsory membership i guess has been agreed with the organisers that are fra approved, so this wasnt a decision made by one person.

found it
Your governing body held a meeting with the event organisers in November with no contentious outcome this year. You however have to be informed of one decision that they unanimously decided upon.

For 2008 and beyond all FRA approved event organisers require that participating teams are FRA members. ( there are rare and exceptional circumstances where the above does not apply, such as a first time out and certain non regular visitors from abroad.)

Your FRA governing body, fully back the event organisers position.


(Message edited by ady on January 07, 2008)

Just to put things in perspective.

I thought my original post was clear.

At the event organisers meeting in November a proposal was put forward by Robot Rumble that all FRA approved event organisers should require that participants in their events were to be FRA members. This was agreed by those event organisers present. Robots Live,Robochallenge and Roaming Robots.

The FRA governing body has only endorsed and welcomed this view.

Where does this leave us today?

This means that for 2008, there is no rocky ground between roboteers and event organisers.

All can move forward together and have an enjoyable year.

And on that positive note, my team and I are looking forward to it.

DMAC:213 it is

Thanks Andy.

Andy, thank you,

your original post was extremely clear (as indeed is this subsequent post) at explaining the what has happened - apologies if my questions have not been clear - for clarity they are:

1) To ask those that were present at the meeting as to why? (Something I do not feel is included in either post).

As the suggestion came from the event organisers then it is principally them that I am asking - if the answer is just because we want to then please feel free to say so.

Jenny subsequentially mentioned the Insurance cover - hence my follow up question of what has changed since last year although this would not appear to be an Event Organiser led rationalle.

2) What do the Event Organisers and the FRA governing body think of the possibility I described of the potential impact of this policy change on those few existing members of the community who do not want to join the FRA?


I might also argue that it actually means there is no rocky ground between the event organisers and the FRA more than with the roboteers, but a decent answer to my concerns expressed above could disuade me of this opinion.

-2>Seperate response to posts not directly relating to my line of questioning in order to keep clarity in my post above

For clarity - my posts have been entirely for the purpose of the two questions I highlight above and if my responses have been misinterpreted as trying to cause unrest or as a criticism of the FRA or event organisers then my apologies these are not the case

Craig - I do (and always have acknowledged) the role the FRA play in health and safety - but note this is a change led by the Event Organisers which does not in reality change the H&S situation.

Once again I would like to point out this is not about me but asking general questions for those roboteers in a specific group (that does currently exist). For the further purposes of any discussion in this thread please work on the assumption that I talking as if I were a member of the FRA - as I would be asking the same question regardless.


Adrian - I appreciate and respect your personal viewpoint on why you join the FRA - but this is not about rationalising how little money it costs - its about understanding the why behind the decision. On this basis I will not comment on the costs and comparisons either.


Oh - and this is not me fighting, I am just trying to get an answer to my perfectly valid questions, I am being persistent in my questioning to get the conversations towards the pertinent points that I am trying to highlight as I feel they are important questions that I would (perhaps selfishly) like answers to - as I feel this is an important decision to make.

fair comment tim, my answer to your question

What do the Event Organisers and the FRA governing body think of the possibility I described of the potential impact of this policy change on those few existing members of the community who do not want to join the FRA

if im honest i think very little, if their was concern it would have much impact then the organisers themselves wouldnt have gone ahead with it, as without roboteers it would have a big impact on them.

i dont know the story as im a bit of a newbee but i know xfm dont post events on here anymore due to issues of some sort, and as you are part of team storm/ed hoppit is your problems merely not related to this?

(Message edited by ady on January 07, 2008)

also everyone has probably read this thread by now so is it worth the ones not chuffed about this change to voice their concerns, then we have a number on how big a potential problem it is? without communication it wont get sorted out.

What ? And open up that can of worms again ?
Been kicked once, smart enough to shut up now.:sad: Triumph of self-censure.

Tim Answers.

1.You need to ask the event organisers individually for their comments.

2. Consequences = not even worth considering a minority to the detriment of the 98% majority of roboteers and a 100% of FRA event organisers

Those that have a problem with the FRA had the ability to change it with an election of personel last April. I suspect that the group you refer to are not members any way and therefore cannot vote but just carp from the outside.

Should you feel that strongly about issues in general, please read my original mail it does advise you on what you do, should you wish to change things within the FRA.

With respect I would advise that you either put or shut up.

Hi all, long time no see. This thread has prompted my interest enough to register on the forum once again. Lack of spare time has meant no time to rebuild M2XT although it did come step closer last year and actually started building again. That was until I read the last FRA minutes and noted the FRA membership requirement to attend live events. I am one of those that Tim referred to that for their own legitimate reasons does not wish to join the FRA. On top of that, recent rule changes made the return even more difficult if not impossible for me. End result, one more heavy gathering dust + feathers.

Adrian, the path of FRA history has left more than its fair share of disgruntled Roboteers, rightly or wrongly. I am one of them and chose to close my forum account and maybe I€™m not alone which could be why the general consensus of posts on this thread may give a biased view.

I respect the decision of the event organisers and if that is their decision then so be it. All I would say is that rather than encourage roboting, I feel the FRA requirement to join the €œRoboteers Union€ as a turn off rather than an encouragement. Combat robots remains a strong interest for me and I regularly follow the technical threads with interest, so it does sadden me to finally admit defeat and realise that I need a new hobby now this one is dead for me.

All the best

Paul

ps. just about to post and spotted AK€™s post. €œSo not even worth considering a minority to the detriment of the 98% majority of roboteers and a 100% of FRA event organisers€ . If I had any doubts, they have just gone in an instance. Perhaps Andy you have the balance wrong, how many heavy combat robots still exist - I would guess far more than are currently FRA members.

If youre looking for numbers heres another that wont join the FRA for reasons beyond having to fork out £10.

Tim I feel at the moment anything I write may not help. I hope to meet up with you at some future date and perhaps you and I can talk over a drink, I€™ll buy. But until then I wish you only the best.

Craig

:)

same here, obviously your problems are deeper than anything i know, but i can only imagine its yourselves that will lose out in the end, which is a shame for you aswell as us, as newbees like me cannot experiance competing against machines like yours. their are more heavyweights out their than fra members but the reason these are not competing is not because of the fra i believe, and if it was because of this why arnt all these people setting up their own organisation, with the commitment i have i would be at a lose end not competing and i find it hard to understand that the people who no longer compete prefer to leave their machines rusting away in a garage because of something so petty, sounds a bit of a sad ending for all these past robots.

double post

(Message edited by john on January 07, 2008)

imo they are not competing because its not on tv not because the FRA

if it was said it was coming back on TV tomo they would all be back within a month

In my personal oppinion i think its worth £10 to see my hard earnt and built creation do what i spent many hours dreaming it would do. Ive had more than my fair share of FRA sour moments in the past as i to strongly believe in my oppinions and tend to stick by them. As was in my circumstance people dont really fall out with the FRA, usually its an individual(s) within the group that they have a personnal disagreement with.

On a whole i think it has taken a while but the FRA together (not as individuals) have been positive on the sport. There are alot of people that have gone out of their way and at their own cost to produce common build rules, event safety guildlines, arena & event assesing.....

We supported this because we feel that the work of these voulenteers (including ourselves) should be supported especially when both us as event organisers and all of us as roboteers simply rely on the work that has been done and taken for granted.

James Cooper - ...people dont really fall out with the FRA, usually its an individual(s) within the group...

Spot on... !

Mr Stu

I would agree with James that the FRA continues to do important work for the community and personally feel its a duty to contribute to the expenses incured by the work carried out. I dont know much, if anything, about the specifics of any personal issues between members of the FRA committee and other builders, but I would suggest its important to seperate individual problems from attitudes to and support of the FRA as an organisation.

I echo Stus sentiment

Ok Guys,

I thought life was a little quiet ! I mean even us event organisors aren€™t fighting at the moment !!!! Time for a nice gritty discussion !!


I have no bones in admitting that I support the FRA, and I believe it has done so much good, I don€™t think people appreciate it sometimes, maybe they just take things for granted€¦€¦. this doesn€™t mean I always agree with everything it does.

I have a few questions for the less positive few, if you don€™t mind answering.

When did you last attend an event?
Have you ever been a member of the FRA?
Is the reason you don€™t come to events because of the FRA?
Do you see having the FRA over the last 3 years a waist of time?
What is the problem with the FRA in your opinion that stops you wanting to both join it, and also be part of it?

Maybe its time we stopped going round in circles, ok, so there are a bunch of roboteers who don€™t appear to like the FRA and what it does, but on the other side of the coin there are a lot people who do, and then there is a lot of us who put our money where our mouth is and get off our back sides and actually try and do something to save our hobby and not let it rot away as it would have done years ago.

Do you think we want to spend our own Saturdays sat in a cold office in Daventry trying to help things move along€¦.. I think I can speak for the rest of the people involved in the FRA that we all believe in it or we wouldn€™t be there!!!

I look forward to your answers to my questions, and hopefully we can find out what the problem is!

Unless we stand united, how do we ever move forward??? Maybe there are a few individuals which dont want us to move at all apart from backwards!!!

John
http://www.RoamingRobots.co.ukwww.RoamingRobots.co.uk

Very well said.

apart from you spelt waste wrong!!

well, i cant get everything right tommo !! :)

Just waiting now ..... de dum de dum LOL

Their all eating dinner John, and watching the first look hollyoaks!

LOL

nah,...... its an hour special of emmerdale !!! LOL

it should be an hour special of robot wars! lol

jonno that was a lovely read

A waist? Do you have one spare as I seem to have lost mine :rofl:

Anyway Jonno - well said and I hope its given people food for thought (there I go again!)

-1>Apologies for taking so long to reply back however - I have been on various trains for the last five hours or so travelling back from a meeting.

Lots of discussion since last I posted and to be honest that is what this forum should be about in my opinion.

Adrian - for absolute clarity my questions in this thread have absolutely nothing to do with any issue involving XFM*

Andy - thank you for your answers -

on 1) the purpose of my questions in this thread is to do just that and ask the event organisers - if they wish to reply in non-open forum I respect that right and they can PM or email me.

on 2) I personally saw the FRA being there to generally make the roboteers lot a better one for all roboteers and I am saddened that we are at a point where it is not worth considering some of our community.

Some choose to enjoy our sport whilst wishing to stay away from any politics, I would like to think there is still a place for these people in our community.

None of what I have written has been a criticism of the FRA it has merely been to seek answers to some questions on behalf of a minority (a personal decision without consultation with others) and I thank Paul and Ewan for adding their thoughts.

At no-time have I been derogatory or inflamatory to any individual, group or association and therefore I find the put or shut up comment unnecessary and an indictment of some of the reasons why some people may have chosen not to be members and the individualisation of most of the issues that aflict our sport currently.

James - I agree wholeheartedly with your statement On a whole i think it has taken a while but the FRA together (not as individuals) have been positive on the sport - I am not criticising the FRA - I am asking for debate around a single policy change (without prejudice to that change by providing a balancing viewpoint)

Jonno - thank you for your response, I am glad you support the FRA and agree that it has done a lot of good.

Not certain if you include me in the category of less positive as I personally on the whole feel quite positive. Though to answer your questions:

-Last event was Sept 07 due to personal commitments and technical problems have not been to one since
-Yes I have previously been a member
-I do come to events
-No the FRA has not been a waste of time
-Comments in a previous post detail why I have been considering my position in relating to joining the FRA but do not preclude me deciding to join again. I would guess that most people who dont join the FRA do so due to personal dislike of some of the politics

I personally feel there is a place for those that dont like the FRA and those that do to all participate - I dont see there having been a problem here in the past at events (other than mainly personal issues).

Jonno, I have every respect and gratitude for the work that you and a few others have done to keep this sport alive by building arenas and running events. You were the first to succesfully do this in my mind and everyone should be grateful for this.

Perhaps you can answer my question as to what your personal reasoning is for wanting all participants to be FRA members?


Believe it or not I am trying to keep us united - perhaps by asking the questions that others dont want to. I am trying to keep all roboteers united in participating at events, regardless of personal viewpoints on the FRA.


-2>*I actively help run XFM shows and have done since the beginning investing significant amounts of time in the process to help put on events for roboteers - but I have no vested interest other than to help promote the sport