Proposals from the RFL

providing its brought in sooner rather than later, id be very happy to agree to 13.6kg and 6kg as proposed, even though ive been dead against 13.6kg in the past, i feel the reasons for wanting to do this are noble, so would vote yes on that basis. if the FRA/RFL truely believe 15kg is a better option, that would get my backing also.

Id prefer ALL rules other than weight remain unchanged however, pressures, voltge etc. There is no point in my opinion changing these, even if we could.

(Message edited by jamesb on July 21, 2006)

Jesus geoff. people are simply stateing that they wouldnt be happy with it and asking questions about other rules that are different between the FRA and RFL that DO make a difference and need looking at, whats wrong with that? besides from the sound of your post it looks like your going ahead with 13.6 regardless of thoughts.... i would surgest listening a little closer to the people your representing.

just my 2 cents

Im happy about the proposals aswell. 6kg is to small for me to build. But i would love to see the featherweight limit go up to 13.6kg. There will still be 13.6kg armoured bricks driving around. But its a good start for new people who dont have much to spend. With 13.6 kg it will be easyer to put a weapon on it.

But as Marien said before. As a builder/designer ill build to my maximum within the weightlimit.

It doesnt matter what the weight limit is. There will always be advanced robot to which starters dont have a chance. So i agree on having the same weightlimit but then seprate classes. Which is the cadet class i think??? I havent read all about it yet.

maybe 12kg advanced and 13.6 kg starters?


(Message edited by tough_as_nails on July 21, 2006)

It seems to me that the proposal involves amending the UK FW rules for the benefit of a small minority that will ever afford to travel to another continent to compete.

Would it not be better to accept that we have a lot of people who have built to 12kg on a shoestring budget and are happy to compete within the UK with that limit?

Surely anyone who can afford the intercontinental travel is well capable of affording the mods required for a different weight limit?

The danger is that this could deter the grass roots competitors that are needed to keep the sport alive in the UK. What do we really stand to gain from it?

regards

Tim Jones

I would rather it stay at 12kg, prefferably go down for me, BUT if its a minority vote then i cant complain.

The other rules mentioned were brought up as an issue as it wasnt mentioned anywhere that they were being looked at and so everyone on here had the right to mention what they thought at the time.
Would have been nice to know before hand!

Is there any expected time when all these final rules will be finished and put into action? Months/years etc?

Just a thought as we are building some new bots soon.

I have to agree with Tims view on the issue for now

The point Im trying to make here is that someone has at least attempted to resolve a problem that has been around for some time. I.E. the differences in the weight classes between various countries
OK maybe the first draft of prof. Calkins wasnt perfect, but it was amended after some healthy arguments both ways.
Now we have a possible framework to take further.
What got to me was the fact that what had started as a perfectly sound discussion was being side tracked by things such as the build rules and other things. I agree they will need to be discussed between various parties at some point but not here and not now.
My personal view is that WE need to do something as the status quo isnt sustainable.
If we want what amounts to a world standard then what has been suggested here is as close as we are going to get
I realise that I may have come across a little harsh but as I have said, this or something like it needs to happen if our sport is going to survive on a world wide basis.
Unless of course you think that we in Europe should stand alone with our 12Kg feathers therefore excluding the possibility of ANY OTHER feathers form ANY OTHER country competing here unless they loose 1.6Kg.
After the proper vote should it be the decision of the FRA/DRG/GRA to reject the concept of a simple 1.6KG increase in the feather limit (Which is after all the ONLY change that would be required to adopt these proposals)
Then to be honest I would have no choice other than to go off and take up a new hobby, as I could not in all good conscience be part of a community with such a narrow minded view.

jus coz the limits change doesnt mean u have to build to them jus means u can

The change is not so earth schattering, so 13.6kg I can easily go along with. But I for one do not for one second believe that this is going to be a major step forward. If we truly want to make all our robots compliant accross the globe, there are much bigger issues to be decided than a weight limit.

So in short, I vote yes for a 13.6kg limit on feathers instead of 12kg, and the 6kg to be maintained for the raptors/hobbyweights.

I agree with Geoff about people from outside europe who want to fight here. I dont see them losing 1.6kg to come over here for a competition. I think its much easyer for the current feathers to add 1.6kg. I understand that costs are made, but it seems to me that many components can be used again. And if you have spend a forune on it, then it should already be capable of handling 13.6kg opponents. :)

If it turns out later that there will be more 13.6kg bricks or mega spinners. Then i agree its getting time to look at the rules.

After looking through other peoples posts i think that the change from 12kg to 13.6kg would be a good idea. We could all find ways to add another 1.6kg to our machines. This would enable everyone to build better machines to fight with. If some of the spinners use 1.6kg to increase the power on their disc then everyone else could use it to upgrade their armour.

Just my view.

Will

Geoff we are not featherweight users but what you have said seems perfectly reasonable to me,
if you want to propose the new weight limit
I for one would second it, as Will said I am sure that the extra 1.6 kgs would make European machines more competitive,

My vote will carry little weight but for what its worth, it goes to Geoff etc.

I have always been a firm believer that there should be international rules.

I took offence to the comment that one said, if you can afford to go to the States to compete then you can afford the modifications to bring into their weight limit etc. Thats hardly the point is it? Its damn expensive living in San Francisco for two weeks. Flights, hotels, car hire, food etc let alone another robot!. All of our experience is set into our rule set and to have to rebuild and design a robot just because we want to compete over the pond etc is not good. The difference might be minor but they certainly do make a difference.

Mike.

Ill put my hand up and admit to making the comment about mods to a robot being a minor cost factor in competing abroad. It was not meant to cause offence merely to highlight another viewpoint, I apolgise if you felt offended. Bear in mind that many struggle to finance the building and running of a robot within the UK, why should they have to face the need to upgrade to have fun and remain competitive in the UK just so that a few can travel further afield?

It really isnt all that unusual to have different rulesets for different continents in motorsports. Why do we feel such a pressing need to have one ruleset for all countries in our sport?

There are IMHO far bigger issues facing the sport but wed better not go there as I caused far to much offence last time I raised my concerns ;(

Regards

Tim Jones

With respect Geoff, I dont think that being narrow minded is the only possible reason for builders to prefer the current 12kg limit. Builders can have perfectly sensible reasons including financial, aesthetic or time considerations for example. I also dont think its irrelevant or unreasonable to at least bring up the issue of other rule changes that would be necessary to properly harmonise a complete rule set worldwide. Still, that said, as a builder just about to start prototyping his first feather Im perfectly happy with 13.6kg if other UK builders are in favour. I think that ultimately an international standard is a good thing and worth a little compromise, but weight is only the first step. Some of the other issues mentioned above may prove less tractable!

The biggest challenge at this point in time regarding weight is international roboteers competing in our country. Losing any weight in a feather is difficult, losing 10% impossible.

This isnt a case of us having to increase weight to compete... we are already within the rules in that respect. Its being accomodating so that others may build to a weight and that weight be valid anywhere in the world.

This isnt a financial issue either; building a heavier feather makes the sport more accessable for those on a tighter budget. Cost is usually proportional to the quality of materials available. For example, Titanium is around half the weight of steel but costs significantly more. Of course, if you work it right, neither costs anything. :)

I may not have cottoned onto this properly, but why cant people over the pond adjust to 12kg?
I may seem narrow minded, but i really can see the spinners and the billets taking over. Atleast at 12kg you need to comprimise between weapons/power and armour.

With an extra 1.6kg i could up my armour to 4mm hardox all over, and still have astro drive and heavier grippier wheels. I would have no fun doing that though! likewise i would have no fun building a mega spinner such as the sort JB mentioned could be possible to produce!! Either no one will fight it-or a billet will just bounce off.
If some of the spinners use 1.6kg to increase the power on their disc then everyone else could use it to upgrade their armour.

Thats my views

Grant, Thats why an international weight class is the first step we have to make. When we have upgraded our machines to 13.6kg, the next step is to look at the rules for safety. And if armour gets to thick and spinners to powerfull we have to look at that aswell. But we can only tell how the robots will evolve after we tried it i think.

(Message edited by tough_as_nails on July 21, 2006)

(Message edited by tough_as_nails on July 21, 2006)

Kane - Quote This isnt a financial issue either; building a heavier feather makes the sport more accessable for those on a tighter budget.

This is the reason i vote for 13.6kg.
I could then finish my feather tomorrow without having to fart about trying to get under the 12kg (Which currently i am struggling with on a tight budget!)

And secondly i think it would be great to see more Americans and maybe Aussies coming over to play!

I say yes to the 13.6kg change. That would make Weed within weight! :) Seriously, just beacuse weve got an extra 1.6kg to play with doesnt mean everyones going to go out and produce mega spinners. You can also get some pretty good flippers made within the higher weight limit, and there arent many of them around at the moment.

Well i guess we wait and see the outcome

how heavy is an etek? can i get 2 in a feather? no thatd be silly Craig but 2 Lems? that i could do, i could build a feather with 18hp of drive 13.6kg please

Look, you just behave yourself Craig!! :)
Oh, and by the way, yes you could in theory...but you wont have any weight left for batteries :crazy:

There seems to be broad acceptance of the desirability of unifying the weight limits and an acceptance by many of 13.6kg for feathers. The governing body need to think about how long the consultation process should take and when a change might take effect. It sounds from many of the above emails that my earlier suggestion of the UK championships 2007 may be too far away? What do others think?

I support David Calkins proposal to unify the weight classes world wide, as set out in his most recent posting. Not only will this be good for our sport internationally but I suspect it will be good for it in the UK as well. A 13.6 kg feather is easier to build than a 12 kg feather. The small classes (6kg and down) are much more popular in the US than here; we can hope that an international standard of 6 kg (which we already use) will lead to some of them competing here and growth of that class.

hey Geoff how bout i borrow the motors from Scorpion :lol:
battereies? who needs batteries itll be powered by my ego thats as good as slapping a nuclear power plant on her :lol:

These proposed changes to the weight limits may be only the first step in the unifacation process. Ultimatly we hope that there will also be a universal set of build rules for all weight classes too. This however is going to a long process, having to incorparate the statutory health & safety legislation from the UK/Europe, the US and Australia alone will be a total nightmare (if indeed it can be done at all!) let alone the more down to earth problems of things like maximun voltages, removable links V power switches etc. etc.
So if we can agree the weights we will be at least part of the way there.
As to a time scale, first the FRA/DRG/GRA will need to formaly discuss and vote on the changes. Once this has happened our constitution requires that any changes to the specifactions will not take effect for a further 3 months to allow teams to make any changes to their machines.
So Im fairly certain that there will be no changes before early 2007.

That sounds ok.

Will the weight change rule(if it happens) be adopted before the other rules? I personally would prefer a whole new change when ALL the rules are set in stone and then all thrown at us at once. Atleast we can carry on for a while until its all sorted asd normal. These may be your plans, just curiouse

i agree with Grant that it is better to implement all rule changes at once so we can start building accordingly.

Good point. Its not just a matter of agreeing the weight change or not, its also debatable whether its to be agreed as an actual change to the building rules, or agreed in principle but not acted on until all rules are harmonised.
Given the lead-in time for actual rule changes to come into force, perhaps its worth broadening the discussion now to thrash out everything that needs to be changed. Not necessarily to reach a final concensus- although that would be good- but at least to get a feel for the scope of the problem and likely sticking points. There doesnt seem to be too much problem with 13.6kg as a feather limit from a UK point of view, but how will US builders respond to the prospect of conforming to our lower limits on gas pressure for example?
So, at the moment we have a couple of issues to consider, do we want the higher weight limit for feathers and if we do, do we want it implemented now or agreed in principle as part of an ongoing process to create an international rule set? And to really get the harmonisation ball rolling perhaps David Calkin can summarise all the current differences in the various rule sets, so that we can see the real shape of the problem?

My personal opinion is that its going to take a VERY long time to be able to get all the rules agreed and set to go, and until thats done there wont be many people traveling to world to fight.
In that case, there is no need to up the weight limit until people are fighting abroad more often I.E when all the rules are set.

We also have atleast 2/3 new robots that are/about to be built but are not sure whether to build to 13.6kg or 12kg as it will take a while to get them finished.

Hm... Well, being of the few US builders who reads and actually posts in here I think I will pipe in and say my 2 cents on this from a view point that is over the pond...

I personally think the change is a good idea. All of our bots will stay the same while you get to add a little weight. We will be able to come over to fight with you and you can come over here to fight with us. I dont understand how this is a bad thing.

- I saw a post about money... I am a 21year old guy that has 2 jobs, I just got my own place, I have payments up the wazoo and very little free time. But I build cuz it is something that I love to do. As I think is the one big reason we all do it! We are not in it for the money because lord knows we spend WAY more than we put into it, so at the end of the day we all do it because we like it and it is fun! I cant think of anything more fun (well I can, but not bot related) than going to a different country and fighting with different bots and meeting new people. That to me would be amazing! I would like very much to make a out of country botn trip this next year. Sure I will save all year and make it a vacation/bot trip, but I would love to do it!!

- is 1.6kg really THAT much? Like I posted in my forum when they were talking about the 33lb change. Whats the big deal (3lb to us is not much)? Keep the same robot but change it a little. Add another batt, a 2nd air tank, make some attachments for whatever robot you fight, or hell... Keep the robot the same. 1.6kg to me, doesnt seem very much. And heck, when your current robot gets killed then just build to the full weight limit.

- I support this idea for the simple fact that I would like to see you all come over here and I would like to come to some of your events. I wana see the cool flippers and the neat things you all build. And im sure you all would like to take a peek at some of our famous bots. With a set of rules, at least weight rules it makes it that much more easy. . .

I dont mean to offend or anything. A few of you know me and talk to me, so they can vouch that I am a chill guy. I am just really believe that this is a good thing. 15kb might have been alot to change, but the 13.6 is totally do-able. Hope you all agree! And I hope to see you all in 2008!!!!!!!

~Chad

- is 1.6kg really THAT much?

Yes it is. it is more than a 13% increase in weight, which is not something to sneeze at.

The weight is not really the issue though (at least not anymore for the most of us), it is the time-frame and all the other regulations that need to be synchronised.

just wanted to point out.... this has happened before.
robots were built to 80kg, then the limit raised to 100kg for various reasons. Razer and Chaos2 never took the full weight allowance but did exceed 80kg with some tweeks.

I attened the last event against 12kg bots with 6 robots, 2 of them 12kg, 1 of them 10.8kg, 1 other was 9kg, another 6.6kg and my last one 5kg. sure, its a disadvantage to have less weight, as proven by the multiple beatings taken by the lighter robots, but if we went to 13.6kg, there is no reason not to enter 12kg machines, or 5kg even! (no hobbyweight class at that event)

all im saying is, look back at when robot wars went up to 100kg. was it a good move? i think so.

I support this change, even though I know it will mean even higher cost to me as ill be even sillier now. The increase cannot happen soon enough, and to be honest, if event organizers agreed to run 13.6kg now on an individual event basis, the rules could catch up later. plus, can we clarify, 13.6kg empty of gas? limit on gas amount stays 600g? or goes up too?

Plus it would mean some robots out there would actually be legal for the first time ever, and chubby machines incapable of getting under 12kg for the last few years could fight for real, if they had the bottle for it.

As james said if the weight is to change it needs to change asap. i am one of many builders that are currently working on a robot. the extra 1.6kg makes a massive differece to how the robot will be made.

Being honest i dont think that uping the limit is a good thing. it just makes a more extreme version of what we all ready have which isnt good for builders costs or attracting newbies to start up in the sport. Ive spoken to a couple of people and they have all more or less said that robot combat is dying. simply because of the super spinners and super boxes being boring and haveing nothing new. it makes it very difficult to build a competertive machine thats different. all have said Something needs to change but the weight isnt one of them. on the other hand it does allow for international compertition yay.

I think its an excellent idea to raise to 13.6kg.

Even if we Europeans go unified weight, non of our pneumatic using machine can compete in any US event. To put it simple, its a bunch of other rules that make the conversion rather impossible in an excisting machine.

Mike knows what the troubles are.

That I will agree on with Mario. It would be awesome if you all could make a push on the RFL to change the Pneu rules!!!

~Chad

And now that I think about it I would like to make a call out to the UK builders.

If the RFL is making a push to change the weight I think you all, the FRA... Should make a push to change our (the RFL) rules regarding pneumatics. Mario is correct, even if the weight was the same the difference in the Pneu rules would be a big stretch to allow you to compete here. For example, we weigh in with a full tank, not dry like you all do. That weight alone could put you all over weight.

So I ask this. Make a petition for the RFL to change its pneu rules to clone yours. Do it for the same reason they want to change the weight so we all can play under one same-ish rule set. Ok, I will get off the soap box now and get back to work :-).

~Chad :-)