Printable View
Must Agree with Ed on this also. It was also mentioned at the last Yorkshire meet and 12.5kG makes more sense if its going to be changed and I for one would support this. Mind you it was also suggested that the gas be included in the weight as some Heavys are using 4.4kG and its only a matter of time before even more is used, I think this needs some concideration also.
The gas weight advantage only lasts as long as the flipping/bashing power.
I dont know where the Americans got their 13,5 kg rule ? It does not make sense to me, it is 29.76237 Pounds so the non-metric argument wont work with me.
12,5 kg does make much more sense because it is half of the lightweights 25 kg. But in the end I dont think we must change our weight limits: 1. they are fine as they are now and 2. why should we adjust to the Americans and Australians ? It is not as if many of them will come abroad on a regular basis and I dont see why we should change our limits by using theirs as standard. To quote an aide of the current US President: we create our own reality #(see quote below), this is the kind of hubris were getting used to but should it govern us ? I agree that international cooperation is needed but why deferr to them when we already have a perfect system in place ?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
# Here is the full quote:
In a disturbing article in a New York Times Magazine, the writer Ron Suskind told of a meeting hed had with a senior adviser to the president. The White House at the time was unhappy about an article Mr. Suskind had written.
According to Mr. Suskind, The aide said that guys like me were in what we call the reality-based community, which he defined as people who believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality. The aide told Mr. Suskind, Thats not the way the world really works anymore. Were an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality.
Perhaps the FRA could advise who has proposed the change and what grounds it is being considered on and surely they have better things to be looking at than this.
Basically stop looking over the pond and start focusing on getting the home ground sorted otherwise there will be even less FRA members to be governed.
Dare I say that at present, there is really only one view that counts on this and thats Roaming Robots. Without them there isnt much else left so if they stick to 12kg (which I hope they do), then 12kg it is.
Paul
12kg is the way to go, I dont think many of us would mind too much about 12.5kg though, and as Paul says, is there an origin to this discussion?
Why changing again? If the US and Australian Roboteers want to build a heavy ,and call it an ant, no problemo for me.If I want to play with them over there, then I will use a machine following their rules.
Weightlimits are a big part of the challenge to build a competitive machine. And changing them is not a solution to make the sport better.
So is also my idea about the rules.
Dont go the formula 1 way. So many restricting rules everyone drives thesame car with other sponsorstickers and thesame components with other brandnamrs.
So if all featherweight builders and Roaming Robots (who run 90% of events) want it to stay, then is there a point in debating it?
If the issue had been raised 3 years ago when feathers were still developing then there may have been a point for discussion, but now there is a large amount of feathers, it wouldnt be right to change. I cant see any any benifits from a rule change. If it aint broke dont fix it!
As paul says there are more important issuses to be looked at, like keeping the sport alive.
too true, 12kg should stay. theres too many changes people will have to make anyway to get them uptoi the limit if its even increased to 12.5kg. My dad spent 4 hrs the other day just to take out just less than one hundred grams from my new chassis, and thats all the fun and challenge of featherweights. people say it will be easier top build at 13.7 or what ever they want, but are heavyweights any eisier. No, infact probably harder!
I do not agree with the statement
Dare I say that at present, there is really only one view that counts on this and thats Roaming Robots. Without them there isnt much else left so if they stick to 12kg (which I hope they do), then 12kg it is.
as Roaming Robots hold the events, they are not the majority of roboteers! and the roboteers should have the say. And if RR were to say something ridiculous(which i know they wont) like changing the weight to 18kg, why should everybody follow that? there are other events that people can attend if they wish to such as BTP and Rc Wars events.(sorry this was not a rant at RR btw)
keep thge weight the same, if any changes should be made rules wise for feathers, make it be more challenging rules, such limiting the power of robots, and armour, and such likes to make people have to use more effieciant methods of doing things instead of just spending loads of money on lightweight components with brute force! This would show the real engineers from the average roboteers and then people will realise that they do not have to cost huge amounts to be good.
My opinion anyway,
Grant
Grant, RR provide the greatest opportunity for fw builders to compete. Im sure Jonno will correct me here if I am wrong, RR is a club and as such members have to abide by RR rules if you wish to compete at any of its events. I have every confidence that Jonno fully considers any rule changes before making deciding on whether they are appropriate to RR. BTP no doubt have their unique rules as does Roger Plant as does the UKRG, if you wish to attend these events, you have to meet that organisers requirements, it matters not what the Roboteer says. Thats not to say that these organisers do not listen to Roboteers but ultimately it is their decision and their decision alone. If they get it wrong, they dont get the competitors and they have an even bigger problem. Yes there are other events but RR still offers the greatest outlet and without them, I think roboting would be far far worse off than it is now.
Paul
At the risk of being accused of multiple posting I think it only fair to add this here.
Where was the first post?
Any possable changes to the weight limit are due to be discussed at the next FRA committee meeting, due to take place on 12/02/05.
We will let you all know the outcome shortly afterwards.
Surely this is a bit short notice for a matter of this importance?
Does the FRA currently have a sufficient percentage of UK roboteers as members to claim the mandate on this decision?
If you want your views on this subject to be taken into account, please contact your regional rep before the meeting. (contact details are on the FRA web-site)
I would strongly suggest that no decision should be made on the 12th. This is not sufficient notice to ensure that all interested parties can submit there opinions.
Part your regional reps job is to pass YOUR views on to the committee, so please use them and make sure that YOU have YOUR say as to how our sport should develop.
I have not yet renewed my membership due to my disgust that the FRA constitution was apparently passed after a hugely inadequate 2 days for members representations. To make a major change to the weight classes after a mere 6 days for members representations would definitely be the last straw for me.
regards
Tim Jones
Tim, from this thread, I do not think any of us have anything to worry about.
Well, this has certainly provoked some heated debate. (Which is no bad thing) Please be aware THERE IS NO PROPOSAL FROM ANYONE BEFORE THE COMMITTEE TO ALTER THE WEIGHT LIMIT!...The subject is on the agenda for DISCUSSION only.
As has been stated, the RFL and the ABBL both agree that the featherweight limit is 30lb (or 13.6Kg+/-). The FRA happen to have a long standing weight limit of 12Kg, which based on a majority of what is written above seems to be fine for most people. But should that be a reason for the Association not to discuss and engage in debate on the subject? I have asked that intrested members submit there views to their regional rep so these views can be brought into the discussion and taken into account.
The discussions at the meeting should produce one of four possible outcomes...
1) No agreement, therefore the limit remains at 12Kg. (but with the option to revisit this subject sometime in the future)
2) An agreement that the limit remains at 12Kg. (That would be the end of the matter)
3) A proposal to increase the weight limit to 13.6Kg (in line with the RFL / ABBL)
4) A proposal to increase the weight limit to 12.5Kg (in line with the other weight classes)
In the event of outcome 3 or 4 then a detailed proposal would be made available to the membership for a reasonable period of discussion.
It would then be put before the governing body for a formal vote, with the voting members being required to take the views of the membership into account. If approved, it would a further 3 months before any amendment would take effect.
So you can see he FRA is not about to do anything rash with regard to the featherweight weight limit.
I hope that this puts some peoples minds at rest.
Geoff.
Number 2.
Mr Stu
I will be voting proposition 2.
As well voting against any additional rules or changed rules that dont have anything to do with safety.
Yep No. 2 as well.
Chris - http://www.featherweights.org/forum
Dont know why USA and Aus changed it to 13.6kg anyway, stupid to be honest and why did they have the right to change it, it was 12kg from the start so why change it.
Well I never expected to here anything a stupid as that here. Thats something Id expect a yank to say.
How many of you have had a look at the american compititions? If you had youll notice that the weight class you are all refering to is what they call the 30lb class. The reason why america uses that weight is because they are the only country in the world who still uses the imperial measuring system (arogant fools that they are). So all their weight classes from the begining were measured in pounds. When Robot Wars started in england they need to revise the weight classes to fit with the metric system. So you changed the weight class, not them or us.
As for why the Australians changed, I wanted to go to the FRA world championships, but they got canned. At the same time I recieved an invite to compete at the Robolympics. I spread the invite around and since then Australians have been looking at travelling to america rather then england to play robots. But of corse most of us realise we arnt up to their level yet and one way to get there was to meet their weight class. That is all. Some of the builders here are still building to 12kg so they could play in england later.
Unfortuantly I still think Scarifier wouldnt last long against the yanks (or the poms either) so Im saving up for new parts and cant afford to go overseas yet. Oh and Scarifier was under 12kg at the last event it attended. I still aim for below 12kg and use the extra 1.6kg as a buffer.
Im definitely in favour of option 2.
Sadly as long as I refuse to join an organisation that uses what is in effect a block voting system for such major decisions I guess I dont have any right to express an opinion either through a regional rep or personally ;(
Such a major rule change should be decided on a one member one vote system IMHO.
2
( Number 1, go take a number 2 :) )
Tim, Geoff said:
In the event of outcome 3 or 4 then a detailed proposal would be made available to the membership for a reasonable period of discussion.
It would then be put before the governing body for a formal vote, with the voting members being required to take the views of the membership into account.
By not being a member you are only hurting yourself. You cant run your feather at events that fall under the FRA and you cant have any say in rule set changes/modifications.
I personally cant see a problem with a local rep taking the areas views into account and then taking the majorities choice/vote to the meeting. I just dont see the difference between that and an individual vote, unless Ive misunderstood what Geoff says.
Also as far as Im aware its a maximum weight limit - its not a target. Heavies weigh upto 100Kg, the most Mute has ever been is 96Kg. I certainly wouldt say Mute is at a disadvantage because it is lighter than some others.
And Id say 2 as well.
If I interpret FRA-regulations correctly then voting will happen when all points of view have been gathered and discussed. As Geoff stated that will take some time. (Now dont start comparing the FRA with a sloth ! True universal vote means time to organise the polling, to formulate the question, to count the ballots...)
I would go for option 2 as well. I am sure reasonable arrangements can be put in place when American or Australian robots come over to compete. Just as I am sure that our own robots can face their heavier opponents and walk away victorious.
By not being a member you are only hurting yourself. You cant run your feather at events that fall under the FRA and you cant have any say in rule set changes/modifications.
Which events are classed as falling under the FRA? To be honest the FRA has yet to sucessfully promote an event in its own right as far as I know. What exactly is to be gained by a self appointed governing body extorting a fee from the active competitors that are the lifeblood of the sport? The FRA surely has no mandate to either enforce rule changes or exclude non members from events that are in reality run by hard working groups of volunteers?
The event organisers and competitors keep the sport going, personally Im having a hard time working out what the FRAs real contribution is. Im left wondering how they justify their crude attempt to enforce a levy on all competitors.
I personally cant see a problem with a local rep taking the areas views into account and then taking the majorities choice/vote to the meeting. I just dont see the difference between that and an individual vote, unless Ive misunderstood what Geoff says.
Think about it for a while.
The major flaw with block voting is that the vote of the member representing 6 yes votes carries the same weight as the vote representing 20 no votes. That seems pretty warped to me!
With regions that are not holding minuted meetings there is little way of ensuring that the reps are indeed truly and accurately representing the views of their region.
Block voting always has and always will be a seriously flawed system of gauging the views of a wide membership.
Its sad that not enough time was allowed for this to be highlighted during consultation on the constitution. A body that only allows 2 days for paid up members to submit views on a draft constitution is showing scant regard for its members opinions.
Also as far as Im aware its a maximum weight limit - its not a target. Heavies weigh upto 100Kg, the most Mute has ever been is 96Kg. I certainly wouldt say Mute is at a disadvantage because it is lighter than some others.
Ed highlighted one of the major problems, an extra 1.6kg on a well designed spinning disc could leave us all taking our feathers home in binbags. Thats a pretty major disadvantage IMHO ;)
Regards
Tim jones
As far as I was aware RR events fall under the FRA rule set (correct me if Im wrong)? And to be frankly honest if you arent a member of the FRA what does it matter to you if the FRA rules do or do not change? If you arent a FRA member you do not need to build to its rules and standards.
Also you missed my point, its a weight limit. You dont have to use 100% of the weight limit. If the limit increases it doesnt mean you need to scrap your machine and start again, you could either leave it as is or modify. Should the rules change sometime in the future (note SHOULD), if you choose not to take advantage of an increase its upto you.
Personally Im against the increase, but the way you talk about it is like is some great conspiricy to instantly change a rule by the evil money extorting FRA. How I see it, Geoff is trying to gauge interest on the subject - not make it law as you are implying.
If you feel so strongly about your opinions why dont you ask to attend one of the meetings? At least then you could express your views directly to the FRA board without going through what you call a flawed system.
Thats me done, cos I aint wading any further into this fictional hornets nest.
Which events are classed as falling under the FRA? To be honest the FRA has yet to sucessfully promote an event in its own right as far as I know.
Im not actually registered with the FRA or any other body because Im still getting properly started in the sport but from what I can pick up from what Ive read in various places, such as this forum, is that the FRA dont promote themselves as an event organiser - only as a governing body - therefore they dont put on events of their own therefore they cant promote any events under their own right.
What exactly is to be gained by a self appointed governing body - The FRA surely has no mandate to either enforce rule changes or exclude non members from events that are in reality run by hard working groups of volunteers?
If there was no governing body at all, the sport would probably fall into disarray; people would build to different rules from others and when it came to fighting, some of them would be at a disadvantage to others because of a lack of set rules to follow. Having a set of definite rules decided by people who are devoted to the sport is a major advantage as it allows everyone to compete on an equal footing.
Perhaps the only part of the above statement I would agree with is the part about excluding non-members; IMO as long as they follow the rules of the event then there shouldnt be a problem but as I said I am not yet registered with a governing body of any sort so I cant properly comment on this particular topic. The fee may seem outrageous to some people as the FRA do not organise events- therefore what do they need the money for. If it is being re-invested to make the sport flourish more then fair enough, but as Ive just said, I dont believe that I am involved enough or affected enough by this to agree or disagree with it. The advantage of making people register as members lets the governing body see how many people are still keeping in the sport and allow them to see if they need to strengthen any promotions to attarct new members.
I apologise if any of these comments offend or disagree with anyone but I am only telling it as I see it.
Regards
Jamie
I dont see why if people are not members of the FRA they cannot take part in events, there is no way I am signing up till the FRA actually does something that I can clearly see, because, as yet I can see no benefit in signing up.
The FRA is promising that 2005 with be a great year for them and the sport - lets hope so.
Mike
http://www.bobblebot.co.ukhttp://www.bobblebot.co.uk
And I forgot to add - I prefer the weight limit at 12kg as it is. :)
Jamie
Geoff
This sounds like a U turn to me. Your original post stated Any possable changes to the weight limit are due to be discussed at the next FRA committee meeting, due to take place on 12/02/05.
We will let you all know the outcome shortly afterwards.
If you want your views on this subject to be taken into account, please contact your regional rep before the meeting.
This sounds like the membership have one shot to have their say before you (the FRA) advise the outcome. Perhaps in future, the FRA could choose its words more carefully and clearly identify what is discussion and what is a motion to change rules.
If there was any doubt, I am a 2 and the UKRG will be staying at 12kg.
Paul
My opinion ......option 2.
quote:
it was 12kg from the start so why change it. - Mr Stu
quote:
When Robot Wars started in england they need to revise the weight classes to fit with the metric system. So you changed the weight class, not them or us. - Daniel Kerrison
If http://www.open.org/~joerger/whowon.html>
If this is correct, youre both wrong.
Yup, twas 11.4
quote:
the RFL brought the weight limt up in 2003 as visible here to make a sequencial pattern of weight in pounds. - Myself.
quote:
Exactly as the 12.5KG is being debated on this very thread. - Myself
Im hardly one to preach about mistakes as this post will entail. All of the RFL weight catergories dont have a sequencial pattern, just some. Making Exactly a wrong statement. I meant to say a more sequencial pattern of weights
What a pedantic fart I am. :mrgreen:
Also is there any chance the FRA may put up a page similar to that on the first link? It looks quite handy, in my books, as a reference to the history of robot combat.
Now Id better go give someone else a word in edgeways before I get kicked off the forum...
Paul,
Thanks for the constructive criticism.
I fully accept that the wording of my original post was, on reflection, not good. I can quite easily see how it could have been taken as you describe. I hope that my subsequent post has cleared up any misunderstanding.
I didnt find your post misleading, just the general atmosphere of the thread makes it feel that way!
Just wondering, it is said that if roboteers have any questions or points to be put across then they should contact their reps to bring it up in meetings, but what about weight class rep voting etc? i know this must go on in the commitee otherwise there would not be any, but can the general roboteers vote as they are the ones it counts for. Or do they have to speak to thier local reps to mention who they would like and why? Also if there is someone elected for a weight class rep that us general roboteers do not agree with, or do not think that they are the best outthere for the job can we vote for someone else to take over?
Sorry about al the questions but i hear small things and cant work out how its done, it all seems to be kept quiet from the public when i thinks its us that should have the main decision.
Thanks
Grant
Which events are classed as falling under the FRA? To be honest the FRA has yet to sucessfully promote an event in its own right as far as I know.
Tim not to get on your case but if you look on the fra home page under the about us page and FAQ you will find this quote:
Q. Are the FRA building an arena?
A. No, the FRA is not an event organiser. It does however encourage organisers to work together and share resources.
I believe this is why the fra does not hold events.
Tim, who do you think setup this forum and keep it running.
Self Apointed Govening body: Think you will find elections every year for all places in the FRA.
Block Voting: how do you think you are represented in this countrys government, by 1 vote from your elected MP.
Tim not to get on your case but if you look on the fra home page under the about us page and FAQ you will find this quote:
Q. Are the FRA building an arena?
A. No, the FRA is not an event organiser. It does however encourage organisers to work together and share resources.
I believe this is why the fra does not hold events.
My question related to what Daniel refered to as events that fall under the FRA when stating that non-members couldnt enter these. We all know the FRA does not hold/run events, this left me wondering what are classed as an events that fall under the FRA
Does this include RR and BTP events or is it simply the case that event organisers can choose to run their events under the rules of the FRAwithout requiring participants to be members of the FRA?
Regards
Tim Jones
Tim, who do you think setup this forum and keep it running.
Maybe not the best thing to say to someone who is no great fan of online forums a and finds email lists and newsgroups a far more user friendly means of debate ;)
Self Apointed Govening body: Think you will find elections every year for all places in the FRA.
A move to be welcomed and perhaps any major changes should be delayed until after any such election has taken place?
Block Voting: how do you think you are represented in this countrys government, by 1 vote from your elected MP.
Now thats a risky comparision to draw the debate could go on forever and the potential for thread drift is astronomical ;)
Government has an excellent minutes system in the form of Hansard. I can find out exactly what my MP did or didnt say in any debate that I am interested in over a cup of coffee less than 24 hours after the event!
By and large it manages a huge budget to the massive benefit of us all.
A wise MP also holds regular constituency surgeries.
But then again governmant also has the massive downside of the party whip shackling any potential for real free apolitical representation ;(
I think Ill go now, otherwise we could be here all night ;)
whispers and ducks out of the way quietly 2 for me too.
Ian
I held a social on Saturday 5th Feb and made a point of raising this subject to gauge opinions and was surprised that the overall view was for number 2.
Being a newcomer to feathers (it isnt finished yet) I was going to vote for the weight increase, but I must vote with the views of the people I represent.
Trev (East Mids Rep)
Personally Im definately OK with 2 having spent hours drilling lightening holes in microCHIP recently, every gram being fought for. And I can afford decent material/components. However my pupils in school who wanted to get involved in the sport say the prefer a bigger limit is better. They could only afford about £100 so...
steel (not Ti),
£3 wiper motors from the scrappy (not astrofights or even £25 gold motors),
recycled steel chair legs for the frame (not ali),
and my offcuts of 6mm poly
... is the order of the day. Its hard to make a competitive feather with that stuff so theyve given up. Its slowly getting a hard sport to get into now, following the path of the heavies.
I almost resisted the urge to post but failed horribly.... so....
Tim, firstly let me state that I am NOT on the board of the FRA so anything I say is MY OPINION just in case someone takes anything I say or have said and quotes me again (I.E. You).
If your questions are so pressing (which they obviously seem to be, unless of course you are trying to stir up trouble) why dont you address your concerns to someone who is able to answer you with some authority. Maybe you could take a look at http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/contact.htmhttp://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/contact.htm for some guidance?
Re: Forums
You said Maybe not the best thing to say to someone who is no great fan of online forums a and finds email lists and newsgroups a far more user friendly means of debate ;). Is this meant to be sarcasm because I dont understand? If you hate forums so much and are such a great fan of e-mail why dont you e-mail (again found at http://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/contact.htmhttp://www.fightingrobots.co.uk/contact.htm) the FRA President or Chairman with your opinions/views?
And with those reflexions, what about the 13.6 kg.If you give me an additional 1.6 kg, I can try to fit a full ali 100*100 FP ram in a feather(about 6 kg for a ram, valve and 2 12 oz bottles). It will only have 5 or 6 actions, but with that amount of power feathers will need parachutes.
Of going all out, and copy Koss idea with an hydraulic weapon.
On the other side, currently working on very cheap drives, a little slow, but absolutely not heavy. A steel chassis is still competitive, its like always, what you want to achive. Ali checkerplate is still not the worst material, and the cheap HDPE is tough enough to play with the big ones.
Dont moan people cant build a good feather in 12 kg. That 1.6 kg extra will only make the creative people build more insane machines. So the difference will stay thesame.