Hobbyweights anyone?

Robots need the public, they pay for the events to be put on. Without live events around the country what are we supposed to do with our robots, drive them around the garden? Recently weve seen alot more featherweight fights been included into events, and alot of the time these arent entertaining enough.

I have no problem with people building 6kg bots, if alot appear i may make one. But at the moment i dont have time, why do i have so many robots to look after?

I didnt mean it to sound quite so nieve, but you seem to think the public dominate robot combat, and thats not true, we do, the roboteers.
And obviously the public do matter, but its what we want. If we want to start an official 6kg weight class then the public shudnt be able to stop us. 6kg weight classes will be simple to build, anyone could from a remote control car, and so wouldnt that be an extra for the public, to know they can build a competative robot chaeply?
And Ed, you seem to thing its us Coopers making a huge fuss over things, its not, we want just what Ian and many others want, a new class at low prices, and its a good way of testing out new feather designs without spending much money.
thats exactly what we want to be able to do without people like you complaining that the public dont want us to, Im sory if its not just want you want, if you dont want one dont build one! What is the point in having robot vcombat dominated by the veiwers? Yes Some people might earn money from it, but when its dominated by what people want to see, then its not always what the roboteers want to do. and isnt that by any chance why we fight robots? To build and fight what we want?
Well my answer to that is yes...
And i bet many others think the same, just dont want to speak out.

Grant

And yes Alan, the public do pay for events, but if they didnt would that mean that there wouldnt be any held?
Rc Wars holds practice events without paying public dont they. Although they are only small there events.
I would rather pay to enter an event where the robot classes and fights are what the roboteers want than get into an event for free and only do what the public want. I think its amasing at the moment how poeple such as RR pay for you to come and do your hobby, thats great. But i hope you can see what im trying to say, its not purely about the public like some of you make it sound out to be.

but grant, your event is one of many throughout the year and my understanding is that you arena is going hired out to be used at public events.

Yeah, I thought that was slightly ironic given those two back to back posts as well Alan ?????

Grant, Ive not said people shouldnt build them, Ive said think carefully about fragmenting a finite number of builders. Please read what Ive written before making sweeping statements about my views.

Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

Yes it is, but i mean the sport of fighting robots isnt purely based around the public, they are a big part of it, but it could survive withought pubilic veiwers.
Im saying that I would rather pay to go to an event where you do what everyone wants to do than go for free to an event where what us roboteers want is just thrown out the window.
Do you understand what im trying to say? That why should we be almost punished (iltho not quite the rite word to use) by not being able to fight a new weight class at most events because the public don;t want us to.
As Ive said yes Rc Wars will run them t almost any event aslong as there are enough because its what people want to do, i mean who will want to go to an event where there not able to run one or more of their robots when they have spent time and money making it to fight? Fair enough smaller robots most likley wont be very entertaining to watch, but atleast you have fun fighting them. And thats what mostly matters, If a roboteer doesnt have fun, then they wont want to go will they.........
I hope you all understand what im trying to say, the public shouldnt stop an official 6kg weight class, or any popular weight class for that instance!

Grant

Big weight classes are a spectator sport I agree. Featherweights and below could probably survive pretty happily without the public. Thats not to say having the public isnt a good thing- FW.org wouldnt spend so long trying to organsise events with the public if we didnt think that. But 6kg weight classes could work perfectly happiliy without the public. Its not the be all and end all! There may be an eventual demise of heavies (I hope not, but it been widely predicted for a year or so), but small weight classes can exist perfectly well. Its nice to show off what are sport and hobby is all about from time to time, but I know of several roboteer only events for feathers in the pipeline- they should be more fun and more relaxed, certainly from an EOs point of view, and may set the tone for future events. Im sure there would be more non public events if it werent for the fact that some members of the community rely on paying public for their income.

Grant, no-one is saying the public are stopping us from doing anything. What Im trying to say is that :

There are a finite number of builders in the UK, with a finite amount of money.

They more weight classes you encourage people to build, the fewer people there will be in each class.

The fewer people there are in each class, the less fights you get, the fewer robots can take part in competition, and thus the less innovation you get per weight class.

My post was a warning to people to think carefully before setting a precedent that extra weight classes can be added at will.

Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

Also it depends on the type of event/show you have. You take an event like Preston which you went to Grant - you would have know the Feather Weights were not really a good crowd pleaser for over 1500 sitting paid public, if im honest, the heavy weigths only just did them selves justice.
At Feather Weight Smash 2003 and 2004 - we gave the ant weights a bigger than normal role there given at a live event, and the public loved it, thats only coz there wasnt over 1500 people at our event.

Ed didnt say that public or other roboteers would stop anyone building a 6kg robot. This is geting silly - do what you like in all honesty. Some people even build 250g robot,s i built one before. If an event has arena time, yeah go for it. I think this topic has just been blown out of poportion due to people mis reading and taking other peoples views the wrong way.

Mr Stu

you sat im not listning to what you have written, i think its quite the other way around.
people wont stop using a robot from one class just because there is a newer class.
i wouldnt stop using my feather just to fight a 6kg robot, i dont see why you have this thought locked in your head that this wil happen, 6 kg robots may influence newcomers to build bigger and better robots, but i think its a very good starting point for people to learn.
from reding posts that roboteers say to newcomers to build an ant weight rather than a feather at first i really think these 6kg robots will take their interests more than ants and as feathers are possibly too hard to build at a very competative level.
I think Eddy understands what im saying, Ed, just try and look at it from all sides before trying to immediatly string out a new weight class.
thanks, grant

*sighs* Im not even going to bother Grant

.... should we introduce a 3Kg class for the people who find 6Kg a bit tough too ?

Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

Im not sure I do understand- Ed has a point. It does dilute things, and importantly what I dont think youre realising is that it becomes very confusing for newcomers. I am fairly sure that its easier for newcomers to start with feathers. Thats was the arguement that was being used a year ago.

We MUST NOT get on the slipperly slope of finding that 6kgers become to complicated and so invent a 3kg weight class. 6kers will become too hard to build at a very competitive level. You must avoid using this arguement. It will get us no where. I see 6kers as a fun aside for feather builders.

Please do not introduce them as a route in- stick with established routes in for which there are more events- which is what newcomers want. It is good that RC wars will provide events, at least it would be if there didnt seem to be such a secretive stigma attached.

I also think Ed is being relistic- I would not be for this being recognised as a new weight class officially. Dilution is a problem when youre talking reasonably big money which we are. I am fairly confident you will get discruntled newcomers who will be annoyed that theyve been ancouraged to build 6kgers only to find its the feathers having fun every 2/3 weeks. Please lets not go own this route.

Its only coz RC Wars are building and making and are going to sell 6kg Robot Kits.

Mr Stu

Not sure I dare post to this thread...

Id just prepared a big (well, not by my standards) post to say that the community will find its own level, and roboteers will only be pulled from the existing categories if theres a benefit to the new one; therefore the new category will die out if there are no roboteers converting to it, no robots in it, and therefore no place to fight. I have to agree with Grant that my motivation to build (when I get there) is based on the challenge of building, not on crowd-pleasing.

However, I have to agree that confusing the newbies (with whom I vaguely group myself, still) would be a bad thing; to a lesser extent the same is true of the crowd. Id be interested to see people fighting at 6kg, just in an informal heres a 6kg robot, build one to fight against it, I think this category brings its own unique challenges sense - we might learn something - but the official categories are quite enough. Arguably too many, since so few middleweights exist. On the other hand, as we get higher grade arenas, Id be interested to see whether more people build superheavyweights.

I would like to say that there are some very scary feathers out there, though. One reason I want to build a heavyweight is that there are *friendly* fights between heavies; I can build a heavy which will lose in such a way that it doesnt cost me a fortune to repair it, unless I enter full combat events (no way, for my first few robots). If I enter a feather, as far as I can see theres a sporting chance the whole thing will need a rebuild - not just the chains reattached, a few welds repaired, some dents banged out, a panel or two replaced and a few wires resoldered (which Id consider to be pretty major damage on a heavy, but still minor repair work). Daimon losing a wheel (twice) to Scorpion Jr. was instructive, and people talking about translational spinners arent encouraging me to take that route into the sport.

As it happens, I dont have a problem with entering directly with a heavyweight (other than a little bit of saving up), but if feathers are seen as the way in then maybe we should be watching this.

Back on topic: build the robot, arrange some opponents, ask an event organizer if you can put on a show event (like the show sports at the Olympics). If it takes off, it takes off, but it needs to displace the existing categories on its own merit. Maybe 6kg really is a better entry point than current feathers, but lets prove it in the arena rather than deciding the categories in advance.

If these things are kit built, thats arguably a different matter - perhaps the kit should be part of the category (like Rexs Robot Challenge having additional requirements). I dont see a problem with putting on some show fights (you know, for kids), but if feathers are the official category then its more likely that people will aspire to make a step up. Theres also a good chance that a self-built machine at 6kg will be less effective than one built from a kit, and that has to be discouraging; I can see the point to keeping them separate.

Have I managed to walk a middle line, or am I going to get rotten eggs thrown from both sides? :-)

--
Fluppet

Pretty central Andrew;-) The problem with introducing them as a way in is that weve seen the same thing happen over the years. Weve seen how radiply feathers have evolved with the benefit of experience from bulding heavies. I see no reason why 6kgers wont almost immediatelly jump to the same standard- no easier for a newbie to build. Feathers are substantial but not unwieldy, not that cheap, but considerably cheaper than heavies, and theres a massive and rapidly growing support base for them. They really are the weight class for newbies (excluding those such as yourself who are familiar with all the technology and so on anyway). I really think pushing 6kgers as the new entry level weight class will have a detrimental effect.

It would appear that RC Wars do plan to sell 6Kg kits, so suddenly their motives for arguing here seem clear.

And Grants post from earlier

And Ed, you seem to thing its us Coopers making a huge fuss over things, its not, we want just what Ian and many others want, a new class at low prices, and its a good way of testing out new feather designs without spending much money.

Seems to me what you actually should have said was were making a fuss as we have financial gain from the 6Kg class. Looks like Eddy was right about that secretive stigma as well - why not just be honest about whats motivating you ?

Ive no issue with anyone selling a 6Kg robot, its nothing to do with me, however....this means that

I hope you all understand what im trying to say, the public shouldnt stop an official 6kg weight class

translates to

People shouldnt stop a 6Kg class being created as we plan to earn from it

I dont believe a 6Kg class will benefit the sport at a whole. By all means run a 6Kg class in RC Wars, but I find it extremley unlikley that any 6Kg class will become an official class guys !

On that basis, will your customers be satisfyed with buying a product that they cant run at all the events that go on over the summer ? Suddenly (and ironically) you find yourself being at the beck and call of that public again and what they might want as a product.

Ed
http://www.teamstorm.comhttp://www.teamstorm.com

I know that its completely off topic, but dam those americans

http://www.valleysolar.com/lwbot1.asphttp://www.valleysolar.com/lwbot1.asp

grrrrr.........

weve seen similar things with the superants and kilo bots, people thought they would be a good idea but ended up being abit of a flop. If RCwars are planning to sell the kits then it obviosly puts a whole new light on their view.

is this one of those threads that will go on for pages but still end up without a solution?

Could Do Alan, we just never know - the truth is out there...

Mr Stu

I just wrote a huge post about my veiws and facts but the cat jumped on escape so i cant be bothered to type it all out again so i will vaigly point out the facts.

Rc Wars is not up for 6kgbots for money at all, the kits were an idea for any weight class but firstly originated with our 6kg bots. NOTHING has been confirmed yet and everything said about these kits are unreliable second hand information!
I want 6kg bots for many reasons, I have always tested featherweight robots in 6kg before building them as a feather for testing of methods etc, and i have found this to work well with PloughBot and i am currently doing the same for a new feather.
I understand your points about confusing to newcomers, and its a very valid point, but money is out of the question.
Ed you said to be honest here, and i am. Things have been miss heard/read and so false accusations are being portrayed.
Lets just get off this track of trying to prove people wrong i bet everyones sick of it now, i know i am. So what do people really think of these robots? Are they worth being taken seriously or not?
I will keep building, testing and fighting with them whatever happens...

Thanks Grant

It sounds like what we have here is a 6kg kit which people would like to fight. To me, thats distinct from a robot weight category. Ive got no problem with that, and no problem with people wanting to fight these 6kg kits at a live event (if enough people want to and the organizer thinks the crowd will like it); fair dos if someone wants to take them on with a robot not derived from the kit.

If people want to fight at 6kg and turn up with the robots, Im happy, but Im afraid Im swayed by the argument that Id want to see people choosing to aim for that category (with robots not directly derived from the kit) before we started making it a standard.

I think you might be taking it a bit far, though, Ed - although maybe its just the way Im reading your post. Maybe someone will benefit from selling a kit which makes building a robot for a given category easier; arguably the same is true now for the people who already sell kit suitable for the existing categories. I dont think there was any harm in asking whether people would like to see this weight category official (and therefore see more people enter *not* with this kit). Various people have expressed their opinion in response, which is all thath can be done of this forum, and although youve made your point well (and expressed the vehemence of your position with your agitation). If Grant had said he was trying to sell robots at this category at the moment the topic came up, hed have been accused of trying to cash in; hes allowed an opinion and it doesnt have to be unbiased, were not entitled to know everyones agenda.

This forum is full of leading questions - Im sure Ed gets plenty of questions about the details of the thickness of his armour and his ground clearance, and a good proportion of those will be people (whether they ever build or not) who are trying to work out ways to beat Storm. Im happy to admit that half the questions I ask of roboteers are on the basis that Id like to copy (hopefully with improvements) a bit of their design, and the other half are based on knowing exactly what Im facing so that I can beat it in the arena. I hope nobody takes offence at this - I can be interested in the cleverness of a design while still wanting to use that information for an ulterior motive. If someone has different private motives, Im not going to call foul.

Sorry Ed, not trying to attack you, just trying to justify everyones position and calm things down a bit (beyond me, I know).

Alan: probably. :-) (Which reminds me, about safety LEDs...)

Gary: Meh. A bit surprised that they didnt try to put things into the international bot name database. I think, both historically and by connection, you should feel you have the moral high ground. You could, of course, try claiming that the connection with the Typhoon aircraft is copyright of the RAF. :-)

Ironic that it looks a little bit like Storm 2, though.

Thatll teach everyone not to go with the mean n tuff names, and stick to Sunshine Lollybot and Fluffy.

Ill go back to my snipping and pruning.

--
Fluppet

Yes your rite Andrew. I am only interested in the pure fighting of this class, and the kits dont come into it.
We have mentioned to people that if they do not have the resources to build certain parts of their robots, or with one case the complete robot Rc Wars is willing to build the robot parts to your exact specifications, this is partly one of the things that must have been heard about wrongly into thinking Rc Wars is trying to build and sell robots for a Particualar 6kg class to make money.

Thanks, hope thats all cleared up now
Grant

Not sure thats how I represented your position, Grant, but thanks for clearing up my misconceptions. Best of luck to you financially if the class does take off and youre in a position to benefit from it, but for now Im happy to see what happens with it, unofficially, on its own merits.

--
Fluppet

Oh no sorry i didnt aim that at you, i just read through this thread and realised what people thought was trying to be done. That was not the case.
But i have heard from atleast 7-8 people who are either currently building or are strongly considering building a 6kg robot. I do get board of fighting against myself and other Rc Wars 6kg robots. Somew good competition would be great.
If no-one else does i will still have fun fighting these in my kitchen (purely becouse i have not yet built a damaging one yet LOL) and because it takes too long to set up the arena.

Thanks Grant

:-) I look forward to seeing them fighting, some day. The more variety the better, so long as people dont get confused!

--
Fluppet

I would prefer you guys to keep my busnuiess off the public forum please. last time Rc Wars was disscused over a public forum certain people had to be spoken to as they were detrimental to the company. Alot of what has been said is not factual about Rc Wars

Any qeustions about how i run my bussnuies or what Rc Wars plans or is doing will go to me rather than be put up for debate by you guys in public, If you have any qeustions please send them to Myself James Cooper or James Baker. we will be more than happy to hear from you.

The underlineing piont from Rc Wars is. If 6kg bots are out there Rc Wars will host a compertition for them, no more disscusion about Rc Wars please unless there is a relevate question you would like answering.

Kind Regards

Rc Wars Crew

James C and James B

Ok Heres my thoughts as the person who started the this Thrend.

Alot of people dont want to see a 6kg Class Officially recognised that ok. It might not be officially recognised but once we continuse to stay up to pase with the new FRA Rules and keep a 6kg weight limit if there is enough intrest in the future it may well become an Official weight class.

People please stop bickering. I decided to read the whole of this thrend as if I was new to the sport. Both Grant and Ed dont come out of it looking like the very intelligent people which I know them to be. You resemble two Kids fighting over a chocolate bar. You obviously dont agree with each others views so why not jsut draw a line under it and agree to disagree. (I hope i dont offend either of you with that paragraph its just how it seemed)

Presently my 6kg robot (Hobbyweight/RC Weight) is Half way completed and I will post some pictures when I get it finnished.

Both James C and James B seem to be nice people and I would have to say I agree with their post about not mentioning anything about RC Wars.

I hope I havent offended anyone in this post or made myself look like a complete idiot (which i generally tend to do when i try to make un biast posts).

Hopefully we will see more 6kg robots at RC Wars 4 where I hope to see some sort of combat with 6kg robots.

Regards
Ian Mc Donald

James Im not getting at you but that was some of the most horrific spelling I have ever seen. This gives your business a very bad image! People wont take you seriously if you wont even do us the courtesy of reading through your post, especially when you try and write them in an official tone like that. Half of it doesnt even make sense....

Please read through your posts- youll get a lot further.

Ok Heres my thoughts as the person who started the this Thrend.

LMAO!!!! sounds like Jerry Springers final words - arrr. LOL Sorry its 1am and im not in a serious frame of mind.

Mr Stu
Take Care of yourself, and each other.

LOL, I tell you about your spelling all the time on these forum posts James. Oh well, its one of those things I frequently do when im trying to write things in a hurry, although Im going to make sure I read this one through, lol.
Look forward to seeing alot of you at Rc Wars series 4.
Will hopefully have a few 6kg robots tagging along with Team Rc Wars depending on whether James wants to or not.
Shall be a very interesting event to see how your 6kgbot runs.

Thanks, Grant

Ok. Let us draw a line under thisevenings friction :-)

All is fair and love in robot wars

Take Care of yourself, and each other....
Night Night.

Mr Stu

Good morning chaps, let the bickering begin... :)

Hello!
Im a roboteer from Austria, and i read this thrend about the Hobbyweigths.
The German Roboteer Assosiation (GRA) has invented a class called Raptors in this weigth (5,44 kg). Nearly the same discussion about weightlimits occured before. In my opinion, its more interesting for beginners to build Raptors than Ants, the fight is more spectacular. This is also importaint for visitors.
In january we had the first little event in this weightclass in Bochum. If you want to see two little movies of these fights look at: http://www.team-crashlab.com/DreamHC/Seite38.htmlhttp://www.team-crashlab.com/DreamHC/Seite38.html
(http://www.team-crashlab.comhttp://www.team-crashlab.com - this is my homepage, where you can also find my three 5,44kg-bots and a gallery of some other robots in this class)
best regards,
Roland

If the weight starts getting used, and we start seeing them out on the circuit, I for one will definitely support it.

Were not here to discourage development in the sport, in fact were here to do exactly the opposite, though two many weights could obviously have a detrimental effect in the long term I could actually see a 6kg weight being very accessible to younger people.

Ill look forward to seeing some 6kg bots out and about.

Sam
FRA Safety Executive

The 6Kg class is useful in some ways, it enabled me to get a few kids into roboteering in the simplest way, the older or more able ones started from scratch and the younger or less able were able to modify cheap old rc cars. We battled them to bits and details are on my xenomania website on http://www.xenomania.co.uk/page2.htmlhttp://www.xenomania.co.uk/page2.html
They moved on to the 12kg class quickly because it allows stronger materials, better drive systems and nastier weapons. However some still prefer the 6Kg...at least they fit in their schoolbags :)
On a serious note 6Kg is OK for modelling/developing/learning/safe playing but for quality battling its got to be 12Kg or bigger.

Felt I had to say something.

Its only coz RC Wars are building and making and are going to sell 6kg Robot Kits. and the quotes from Ed later were not appropriate.

If as a community we continue to insinuate that business interests dictate our opinions, and or official stance of robot progress we will all end up being as untrusted as the inhabitants of parlament. By attacking each other we just destabalize the community as so, though I am tempted to get the fangs out and retort I think a simple request that others not bring up misquoted gossip and misunderstood points as a way of attacking James Cooper and I.

My personal stance has been stated. I am in favour of a 6kg class as 4 years ago that is where RCWars started. This is before most of the people here had started a 12kg robot, so I think the precident was set a long time ago. There is a demand for it, so if it grows it grows, if not, we have featherweight clusterbots.

My business opinion of the 6kg class is this, we will survive without it, and we do not currently sell 6kg robots, though this may change if there is demand, this is the same situation for 12kg robots. I think statements like Its only coz RC Wars are building and making and are going to sell 6kg Robot Kits. should be thought out in great detail before posting as we have fallen out with people before over RcWars, and I for one do not want to do so again.

ps... how heavy are the Zeobots going to be?
(12kg I assume)

Well said, James(es). I hope my minor contribution to this thread hasnt caused you offence or implied disrepute.

Im just looking forward to seeing what robots are around in a few years, 6kg or no.

--
Fluppet

James, the Zeobot is in the 12kg class but the standard version with pneumatic lifter should be about 10kg allowing room for bolt ons.

Paul

Just incase anyone misses my other post, I picked up a Zeobot leaflet from FeatherWeight Smash 04 and put it through OCR you can find the leaflet information on the FeatherWeights.org forum by following the link . . . .

http://nobadrecords.co.uk/hosted/forum/fwforum/viewtopic.php?p=782&sid=5cac8f7cee4dcec67b7d7df39a 8b8430#782http://nobadrecords.co.uk/hosted/for...&sid=5cac8f7ce e4dcec67b7d7df39a8b8430#782
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Chris / Mr RAnts - http://www.featherweights.org/forum Im So Evil Im Worshipped By The Devil