Sounds interesting Ed, i could see the production doing something stupid like that to make the fight more interesting, well done anyway, i think you won, and those above who think you didnt are anti-storm conspiracists :)
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Sounds interesting Ed, i could see the production doing something stupid like that to make the fight more interesting, well done anyway, i think you won, and those above who think you didnt are anti-storm conspiracists :)
All,
Just a word on Hard...actually we broke down before Supernova hit us...the batteries just went dead...
When looking at the damage done by Supernova afterwards, it tooks us a half a day of hammering to get it out...and that was with a really big hammer....so that spinner really is powerful. But..we didnt have a hole in the armour, only a big dent..
The inner drive system, batteries, etc were undamaged.
Anyway Hard is being redesigned as I write this : new batteries, new R/C interface (our own), new wheels (a lot more grip and speed), new home-brewn high pressure valves (read small and lots, lots of flow), a 2L buffer tank, a bigger cylinder (from 50mm up to 80mm, with high flow, read very fast and powerful. If we still have room left in the chassis it may een get bigger)
We hope to be ready for the GRA event in Essen, Germany June 12th&13th...
Cheers,
Frank
Looking forward to see the new Hard! Will you make it to the FRA World Championship?
Seems fitting that Robot Wars has gone out this way....kicking and screaming!
Controversy has always been a part of Robot Wars, but ever since the Razer VS Tornado thing (well, things, depending on who you ask!) it seems everyone has been itching for more fights where they can argue the same points over and over and over in a veign attempt to prove their side right and the other wrong...
Oh well, the louder we yell about the controversy, the less time we have to realise that Robot Wars last EVER episode has slipped quietly out the back door with hardly anyone noting that fact.....
I for one will miss it, interfering House Robots and all! :)
Hmmmmmmmmmmm
At least it ended in a good way (ie. Storm II winning)
Assuming it is the last...
Christian,
If were still in one piece after the GRA event (if it happens), well certainly go for the FRA event as well.
Cheers,
Frank
70mm Frank, 70 mm...
Mario,
Thats what we have lying around....but were looking to go for 80 or 90mm....talk to Jan/Geert...
And by the way, our home brewn valve works !!!!
Geert has assembled the weapon in the chassis again, and it works !
Now well concentrate on the improved electronics and drive system (new wheels)
Cheers,
Frank
Judging fights is a tough job and the judges will never please everyone all the time. Mostly i think they get it right. But in these cases i passionately believe they got it wrong:
earliest first:
Mortis V Recyclopse
I loved recyclopse but this decision was ultimately very surpsing and incorrect. The decision must have been loaded against mortis because they were far more aggressive, got under recyclopse numerous times (recyclopse never got under mortis once) and they bossed the whole fight. What happened judges? Still who won pleased me.
Gravedigger V Stegasawus
Again pleased with the decision as my favourite went through, but it was definately wrong. The robots were pushing each other equally and the only two good attacks were from gravedigger (the flips). At one time steg was on its side and would not have come back down had matilda not intervened. The judges got it incorrect on aggression!
101 V Hypnodisc
Right. Just.
Stinger V Panic attack
Again a robot bosses a fight only to go out, very dubious indeed. Perhaps the worst decision ever.
Razer V Tornado
Cage shouldnt have been on anyway so wrong, Razer had them on the pit anyway come the end.
Mute V Storm 2 (new bloods)
Wrong, like Gravedigger v steg, equal pushing match then two very good attacks from one side and they somehow lose. How do they do it?
Storm 2 V Typhoon 2
Wrong, aggression on such a scale should override any superficial damage created. Decisions should not be loaded at all.
And finally...
Mute V Judgeshred 3
Worst decision ever, tying with panic v stinger. Judge: all the aggresion, all the damage, all the style, all the control and they somehow lose. What they didnt show you on TV was numerous attacks from Mute with the rear flipper, however these attacks were pathetic compared to judge throwing mute about and never once was the judge overturned. Abosulutely hopeless decision, that should constitute a written apology to team judge shred.
Oh, and
Chaos 2 vs Wild Thing-Correct
Or at least, sending Chaos 2 through was correct. Calling it unanamous (or however its spelt) was NOT!
And George, for the final inferno time...
1;Tornados cage wasnt breaching any rules, so it SHOULD have been allowed
2;Tornado wasnt over the pit, Razer was holding it there. When Tornado WAS over the pit, it drove back out.
I dont know how clearer Im supposed to make this.
Im very well aware of the rules on this occasion, and that the cage was allowed. However, as with the arguments on the old RW official forum, there are many people including myself who simply believe that the cage was wrong, hence the decision. I seriously do not want to bring this up, so can we please leave it that i think it was wrong, and you dont. Cheers.
p.s. Unanamous = unanimous. Pretty close attempt.
Hmmm... I never did understand the objections to Tornados mod for the Razer fight- since it was declared and legal, it would make about as much sense for me to continually protest that flippers are wrong, or crushers or any other legal weapon or feature on a robot was wrong. Do you mean somehow morally wrong? Ach well, if thats the way you feel...
As to the pit, my way of looking at that is that going down the pit isnt the reason you lose; you lose because youre immobilised down there. If (say) Cassius 2 had gone in the right way to pogo out, it couldve continued fighting. Also, Tornado was being held over the pit. A count would only start once Razer let go- but even then if Tornado had driven off before being counted out... As it was, assuming cease was called when it appeared to be, it was too late to count em out anyway, even if they had been stuck. With the greatest respect, if you dont want folk to contest your view on this, dont bring it up yourself! ;o)
Apart from that though George I agree with your assessments almost to the word- although I dont feel as strongly about the Panic vs Stinger fight. Judging Stinger must be tricky- its a counter-puncher thats almost bound to hit you as you go in. I do think damage should count for more- but I agree completely that superficial damage shouldnt override eveything else. Although many decisions were more dramatically bizarre, I found the T2 vs Darke Destroyer decision particularly disheartening...
There are two different issues here. One is the judges watching a different fight from the rest of the world, and the other is whether the fight itself was fair.
Inconsistent decisions about whether a stacked robot is out usually come under the latter category, although its interesting that in this case the judges got involved. There have been as many cases where house robot behaviour (or lack thereof) has caused an unfair result as there have been times when the judges were random.
Personally I think the judges were right to give Tornado the result in season 6; I just feel Razer should have been freed from the angle grinder sooner. (Tornado won the fight, but that shouldnt have been the fight that happened.) In their next meeting both the judges and the house roboteers (or at least, the director) were in their own little world.
The Typhoon 2/Storm 2 final was, again, influenced by the behaviour (or lack thereof) of the house robots as much as by the judges. Storm 2 vs Supernova was just a case of left hand... right hand.
The ACW cage on Tornado was contentious partly because (according, IIRC, to reports on the Razer site at the time) team Razer had been assured on a number of occasions that it was allowed in the current competition (at the time) but wouldnt be allowed in the future. Of course, its *not* allowed now, but only after several fights between the two and Razers probable retirement. It could be argued (and I dont want to get involved) that this meant the team didnt spend as much development effort countering it as they might have done. Plus there was a dodgy judges decision the first time the ACW was used; it all led to the kind of thing we dont really need, in this sport, and the teams werent really to blame for any of it.
The Mortis/Recyclopse fight still rankles - I still have vague ties to Cambridge, but Id only recently graduated when that happened. Rob didnt exactly represent the University in the manner everyone might have liked on that occasion, but I have to agree with the source of his indignation (and approve of Rexs attitude to the sport). Thats when I lost faith in the judges.
The number of fight outcomes which have changed primarily because Matildas tail wont stay out of the way isnt funny. Its one of the main reasons I feel the FRA is better without house robots - and certainly without ones which are better controlled (and fairer) than Mentorns.
Of course, if robots werent trashed by random house robot activity, and if random judging didnt cost people prize money, it probably wouldnt matter. Mind you, its not usually the competitors who rant about this kind of stuff - as Paul says, its the fans like myself. (Mind you, I dont feel Im trying to impose my viewpoint [as distinct from facts about what happened] on anyone - and Im sorry if I ever give that impression; Im just trying to get as much detail about a complex situation as possible to ensure the same cant happen to me when I eventually compete!)
People have their favourites, be they fans or roboteers, and fight judging will always be subjective. If youre wanting a robot to win, its hard not to be biased about its performance. Disagreements are going to happen; its just a pity that many judging decisions seem to be affected not just by favouritism but also by a limited acquisition of the facts. I also cant feel that getting the audience to shout judge, judge, judge (as the warm-up act at Extreme 2 were doing, at least) is conducive to getting a measured, well thought-out conclusion.
It just goes to show that the only safe way to win is to completely disable the opponent - winning on points is always risky, and arguably thats as it should be.
--
Fluppet
John - excellent points raised. Firstly, i did not bring up the Tornado/Razer fight, it has already been mentioned several times in this post above, but i just added my view. If you dont agree with it, thats fair enough. Peace.
Secondly, i agree with your slant on the T2/Darke Destroyer fight, i should have added that to my list. All T2 aggression and no damage from Darke Destroyer meant that the decision should obviously have gone the other way - definately wrong, but it didnt influence anything major so oh well.
Andrew - definately with you on the House Robot intervention, more often than not the Hrs ruin great fights or simply the method in which they intervene is inconsistent - they seem to have a different agenda for every fight. I would be more comfortable if definate decisions were made on Hr intervention in future.
perhaps different drivers for the house robots each time are to blame?
Series 7 it was all students and not the regular team controlling them. Series 6 and at extreme there were a variety of drivers which included many roboteers (although sadly i never had time to have a go :sad:)
just a suggestion
Different drivers doesnt excuse the way they seem to go one way or another... There should be set guide-lines for when they are and arent allowed to do something.
We know the house robots arent really interested in whats fair, what robot SHOULD be attacked, and what robot shouldnt.....
Theyre controlled by the director to make sure they make the best television possible....
And in a way, since were still talking about some of the fights...I guess they served their purpose! :wink:
Hmmmmmmmmmm
quoteThe Mortis/Recyclopse fight still rankles - Thats when I lost faith in the judges./quote
Surely that means you never had faith in the judges, given that was the first ever judges decision? (and still the worst IMO, followed by Stinger/Chaos 2 and Storm 2/Typhoon)
quoteAndrew - definately with you on the House Robot intervention, more often than not the Hrs ruin great fights or simply the method in which they intervene is inconsistent - they seem to have a different agenda for every fight. I would be more comfortable if definate decisions were made on Hr intervention in future./quote
I would too, but it would never happen because it just wouldnt suit Mentorns manipulative habits - even though I can only recall a handful of deliberate and unjust house robot interventions that rigged the outcome of the fight. Napalm/Pandamonium (Napalm=celeb team), Roadblock/King B (winner goes to grand final, Roadblock=top seed), and Behemoth/Chompalot (winner fights Pussycat=celeb team, Chompalot much weaker opponent than Behemoth - allegedly...)
And of course, because RW is dead anyway.
Stinger vs Chaos 2 was the correct decition because Stinger shouldnt have been there in the first place. End of Story!
Strange way to look at things Chris.
quoteStinger vs Chaos 2 was the correct decition because Stinger shouldnt have been there in the first place. End of Story!/quote
So? They shouldve given the fight to Stinger, and let Pussycat trash them in the final, which they wouldve done. Instead we get the worst result in RW history. (ie. the same robot winning it more than once)
Hey, they shouldnt have given the fight to Stinger in its previous battle with Panic Attack. After that, I didnt CARE what happened, just as long as Stinger was beaten.
Each fight on its own merits I reckon...
Besides, we dont know Pussycat would have trashed Stinger. The blade stopped quite early on in the fight with Chaos 2, and a few whacks with that tail might have done the same thing.
Pussycat V Stinger would have been a very interesting fight and no doubt would go to the judges, but my moneys on pussycat because stinger i feel wouldnt be able to damage them, or break them down.
Chris - you have to look at each fight on its own merits, just because you feel that stinger should not have beaten panic attack (incidentally i feel the same way) it doesnt mean therefore stinger should not have beaten chaos 2, or else its very unfair.
P.S. I thought stinger V Chaos 2 was the right decision.
Ahem. Pussycat and Stinger already HAVE met. :proud: It was in Round 1 of Extreme 1s All-Stars tournament the two collided. The fight indeed went to the judges and Pussycat triumphed :)
Thankyou for pointing that out, i had forgot!
Yes but in the extreme fight, Pussycat hadnt taken a couple of shots from Hypnodisc prior to the fight. It was also a ~80 KG Stinger fighting a ~100 KG Pussycat, rather than both being ~80 KGs, so it isnt a fiar comparison of what might have been in series 4:)
Has it been confirmed that robot wars wont continue on 5
nope although we should find out soon because the financial year ends today so hopefully well all have an answer within the next few weeks
I thought that Tornado had already used the ACW cage against Razer in the American TNN series? It won there - hence why the Razer team were not as surprised as you may have expected. In addition, they did have a solution to the ACW - the hook on the end of the crusher.
Although there have been some really bad decisions in Robot Wars none of them compare to the farcical state of some Battlebots JDs.
Has anyone got a link to info about, or a pic of the ACW cage? I keep hearing about it but I cant think how a device such as this might work on an invertible robot.
Cheers
-- Kev
MC: Yup, it was used in the TNN series, and (according to the Razer site at the time) the decision was a bit of a farce - although Razer got pushed around, the ACW spinner was disabled. The judges were under the impression that the motor lying on the floor was from Razer - actually it was from the ACW. This is from memory and going off what was on Vinnys site; Ive not seen the fight, so please dont take this report as gospel.
So yes, team Razer had seen the ACW before season 6, and they had the hook ready, but I believe (and again this is from memory of a year or two back) they were told after the TNN fight that the cage wouldnt be allowed again, so I suspect the hook was an afterthought. Team Tornado generously allowed them time to weld it on, and Ive got nothing against the conduct of Andrew & co, but the reports on Vinnys site at the time would certainly imply that they werent aware that they would be needing to counter the ACW again. (That being the fault of the judges, not anyone else - team Tornado brought weapons just in case and things like the anti-spinner weapon *were* disallowed.) My understanding was that they were told the same after Season 6, which may or may not have affected the Extreme 2 performance (although smoking motors probably affected the final - after the concession - result more).
All this is from hazy memory, so apologies to anyone Im misrepresenting.
--
Fluppet
Kev: there might be a picture somewhere on the Tornado site. Its effectively a rail set halfway up the side of Tornado, supported by some struts coming off the body. The gap between the rail and the body is intended to exceed the reach of Razers beak (although I believe they got some scratches in at the limit). A horizontal spinning bar is mounted at the front of the frame.
When it was first mentioned I presumed it was something the beak couldnt reach over; its not - its just something which (not having any solid structure) is hard for Razer to do any damage to, and keeps the crusher away from the more delicate parts of the robot proper. If Razers beak incorporated a cutting part in the angle of the jaw (think jaws of life, or wire cutters) the cage could probably be dismantled - it would be a poor weapon against Aggrobot, for example. As is, its quite effective - especially since, once it was hooked, Razer tried to push Tornado (which wedged in the arena floor); my feeling is that pulling would have been more effective, but perhaps I should stay out of it until I have a robot with a combat record comparable to Razers. :-)
Because the height of the spinner is less than half the height of Tornado, the robot is still invertable, although I dont believe its been flipped while using it.
--
Fluppet
Id like to see a robot flip Tornado while the are using the ACW. Gravity maybe?
Kev - think metal spiders web and youre more than halfway there.
Cheers for that - I found some pics on the tornado site (admittedly of the cage post-battle-trashing) and now Ive got a much better idea what youre all talking about.
-- Kev
Well, if Tornado was fighting a flipper, they wouldnt have the ACW on, as its only for crushers...
Thats what I thought the Razer hook was for actually, to try and use the Razer arm to allow it to flip Tornado....which Im not sure would work upside down with the cage on...
Oh well, without Razer its all moot now....and without RW, VERY moot Im afraid!!
Word of the day: Moot!
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
I think the hook was just to get the wheels off the ground - which it did very well (even if the subsequent attempt to push was less effective). At the right angle the entire frame can be lifted (as in season 6), in which case an OOTA might have worked - hook under the body, using the ACW as leverage.
For dragging the ACW, Im surprised the rear-facing hooks on Razers spine werent effective - I thought thats what they were there for, and by lowering the snoot and driving under the cage Id have thought Razer could get inside it and start chewing on Tornado proper. But hey, since my driving isnt up to Ians standards (probably - the old can you drive a car?/I dont know, Ive never tried thing) Im not really in a position to suggest tactics.
Its true Tornado probably wouldnt have the ACW against a flipper, although it would definitely make it harder to flip all the way over (although the ground clearance would be a bit of a problem). Might happen in a multi-way fight, though. Id have thought the spinner was low-profile enough that Tornado would still be invertible.
More of a moot point since the ACW is illegal in Robot Wars now. Mind you, it might get used against other crushers in an FRA event (given an arena which can take the spinner) which would be interesting.
--
Fluppet
Like andrew said tornado wouldnt have the ACW against anyone now:)