Featherweights - Active weapon rule

All, I don't post often but think I have a unique perspective on this as I spend my time at an event interacting with the audience.

It was me that said to Alan we have a problem here when I realised that we have an all-box final. The problem with the Featherweights that day was two fold.....

1) There are too many robots in the arena for the audience to keep track of. This ruins the 'story' of the fight, the audience ultimatley want a story to be told, a perfect fight would be knife edge after knife edge of 2 or three robots fighting. With so many in there, you can clearly see the audience loose interest.

2) With no robots with active weapons you've now got the double problem of not just lots of robots, but lots of robots that do very little. At Worthing the audience switched off, totally, people were talking to each other as the fight went on in the audience, kids were dis-interested and it took a real effort to get them back for the Heavyweight final.

The problem is that viewed individually, you can argue that a robot doesn't need an active weapon for lots of reasons.... which have already been discussed above, however when you put all those non active weapon bots together in a group, it just doesn't work (fact).

We need to entertian an audience, and we need to make what we do look like fun both to sustain the ticket sales, and bring new builders into the game. Alan's idea is a good one, the problem with feathers in a heavy arena is that they quickly get lost.


I don't want to see active weapons made a requirement either - but a simple lifter or anything that moves isn't that hard to do, and I'd hope that people soon want to move on from building a rambot to something more exciting rather than people have to be forced into it via a rule change at events.

As I've said, never been to an event, but I've viewed my fair amount of fights online. I personally dislike it (as a member of the audience, be it a virtual audience) when there are 8 robots in a single fight. I can't see what is going on, all strategy is lost and I zone out. For me it's the strategy that keeps the fight interesting. I would prefer to see 2 or 3 boxes head to head than 8 flippers in one go.

I think the robots are fine, I think the arena is (mostly) fine. I think the way the fights are planned out is the problem. Lots of robots = no strategy / impossible to follow each robot = disinterest.

Just scrap the competition and just have white boards but limit the amount of boxes allowed to enter and get all the flippers in there to flip out the boxes and then go and take out the axes.

But seriously, where is the wiki the FRA were meant to be making how many months ago? Having guides where people can learn from would help and encourage people to make robots with weapons.

On July 4th Kane wrote to a reply of mine asking if there was any news on the wiki.

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Originally Posted by kane

The new website is just about ready, and this includes full editing so people can create, edit and publish pages on the site.

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If it takes over 2 months to launch a just about ready website then I really do worry about the FRA...

Don't wait for the FRA to do anything Alan as the sport will be dead by the time they do something, but obviously boxes can't be banned as they are the starting point and some are actually decent, just make them all be fast lol.

Well, at least we know what the problems are...

Alan, that plan sounds a lot like a league system - well worth trying out at Kidderminster as what works for the heavyweights doesn't necessarily work for the featherweights.

Ed, I'm quite glad you wrote as I've been thinking a lot about that duty myself. I've considered commentating such videos for YouTube & I feel I would somewhat be sharing jobs slightly.

The person who wields the microphone is ultimately relied upon by the audience to highlight the moments worth seeing. Only trouble being, the current number of featherweights would require a speed worthy of the grand national!

When it doesn't happen, you are left not saying very much & lacking in the very enthusiasm the show needs you to promote. Ed is too much an educated gentlemen to stoop to the trivia, corny puns & general mocking myself or J Pearce would.

You (plural) say limit machines to 4 or less RW style battles but that would be unfair to those who have travelled for hours upon hours for... one fight? That sounds more like the show section needs a review.

You say weapon less machines do little but that is surely is general statement. Flippers & Axes are generally 1 (very popular) trick ponies.

Speaking of popular, has anyone considered the crazy idea of actually asking the audiences?

Make the arenas spinner safe and you'll get competitors from the robochallenge events. This solves a number of problems:
1. Gives the people who have built these things somewhere else to compete
2. Means the fights will ultimately have more destruction
3. Doesn't alienate anyone and invites a part of our own community which has been excluded for a long time
4. It isn't up to the competitors to improve the show. The current breed of non-spinner featherweights are a creation of the event limitations

Anyway, we could say the same about the heavyweights. Put a ban on flippers and make them have destructive weapons

I don't think too many robots is the issue (you don't normally hear the commentator on the grand national say there are too many horses!) Use words like mayhem, carnage, slaughter, destruction, brutal oppression, just watch the news you will come up with more :uhoh:

I agree with those who advise the opposite have as many robots in the fight as you can and ask the audience to judge who was first ,second and third, Points are awarded, and the one with the most points over the weekend wins the prize.

Also when I was on the FRA committee I was opposed to a ban on non active weaponed robots, but I also think that the final on Sunday was boring and it is getting harder to judge as each event goes by. I agree that a box is the start for almost all roboteers these days, but I think that the time has come for some of those guys to thinking about evolving and upping the game. It is clear to me when I tech check you all that some builders out there can build an impressive robot, so get on with putting an electric axe on the top if you have no experience with pneumatics.

Dan and others the cost of building a heavyweight sized spinner proof arena is out of any current EOs budgets can this idea be forgotten by roboteers unless someone actually has a costing, business plan and someone with the funds to do it. RL arena sturcture is not capable of housing the necessary weight of polycarb required for spinners.

I think at Kidderminster we should put all the into 3 fights out of the 4. This will help limit the numbers in the arena and possibly seed the robots with weapons so they are evenly split so there is always an active weapon in the arena. Then as Alan said judge the top 3 and proceed to the event winner on a points system from the 3 fights. I want to avoid: 1) having every FW in all the fights as it will be too many, thinking about arming and disarming. 2) having too many broken robots by the time the final show comes around.

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Dan and others the cost of building a heavyweight sized spinner proof arena is out of any current EOs budgets can this idea be forgotten by roboteers unless someone actually has a costing, business plan and someone with the funds to do it

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What about FW's?

Plus, can't afford to house 'interesting' robots? Don't whinge when boxes turn up. I do stand by my earlier point though of, the lack of spinners making RL and RR a great place to start.

The FRA arena guidlines state that then arena has to be baciscally the same for running FW and HW spinners, a quick guess off the top of my head your looking at £30'000+ to upgrade our arena to be spinner proof, plus a couple of grand every event to cover the additional transport and crew required. Also if we were to run spinners in every show, the rate of robots getting destroyed would increase and we would end up with more boxes to defend against the spinners. The fact that spinners dont run at most events should encourage people to build more interesting robots as you cont have to worry about protecting against spinners.

Agreed.

Is there no way spinners can be run in a way that it just gives the other robot a nasty knock or flips it over rather than destroying it? If say there's a RPM limit or a max weight limit on the spinning element?

I always thought axes etc aren't that common as they aren't that effective? So people would rather spend their money on a flipper or a good rambot?

If I remember correctly, matilda had a spinning disc at one of the Roaming Robot's events. It was only low speed though, and it's different when a house bot has a spinner, as it is a lot easier to check that one bot is safe, rather than go aroud checking lots of feather weight bots.

I think what Ed and Alan are saying is


FORGET SPINNERS!!!!!!!!!!

But I could be wrong :mrgreen:

Axes on a cheap scale are nothing next to spinners and they're easy to defend against. Probably why they're not the first option for new roboteers.

I stand by what I said earlier. I think the events can be more interesting if there are just 2-3 robots in the arena at any one time. Having 8 or something stupid in there at once means following the action is impossible and all tactics are lost. Hence, people become disinterested. I don't think the robots are the problem, I don't think the arena is the problem. I think the way fights are setup is the problem.

Also, building a spinner which is designed to be ineffective is a waste of money?! It would be like making an awesome car shell, then putting a 49cc engine in it. People are going to realize it's stupid.

In the rules there is Dan.

This is probably on a different note entirely but it reminded me of a conversation Gary and I had a few months ago in that technically Scar isn't classed as a spinner. Due to the weight, size and speed of the disc it fulfils none of the criteria to be classed as one in its current setup. Saying that though, if it were a modern motor powering the disc, I have no doubt that if I turned up with Scar running an 8kg disc (less than 20% of the bot) and around 12 inches (less than 24inches) running at 4000rpm that it would still not be allowed in the arena.

I think the way it is currently it could run under the title of rotary lifter as the weapon motor sucks something terrible.

I like the mayhem of lots of robots! Plus I think an audience will work on a more is better opinion. Have fewer robots for the later round, when you have time (and reason) to explain each robot and build a story.

At the end of the day, spinners cause a lot of shrapnel, if they don't, then they're not going too be too affective. Really, it all comes down to safety, in current arenas, spinners can't be run, they're too dangerous, and as Alan said earlier, it would cost a ridiculous amount to upgrade arenas.

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Originally Posted by geeza

I agree that a box is the start for almost all roboteers these days, but I think that the time has come for some of those guys to thinking about evolving and upping the game.

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From what I've seen,Tron, Satanix & the Juggernaughts aside, They're already the most evolved FWs! Literally I have seen good internal changes since Leicester.
Ok, I may only be thinking of 2 or 3 machines here but the pushing featherweights remaining aside from the above exemption list all have roboteers in their first year & a bit. Precisely the starter roboteer we are all on about.

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Originally Posted by geeza

I think at Kidderminster we should put all the into 3 fights out of the 4. This will help limit the numbers in the arena and possibly seed the robots with weapons so they are evenly split so there is always an active weapon in the arena. Then as Alan said judge the top 3 and proceed to the event winner on a points system from the 3 fights. I want to avoid: 1) having every FW in all the fights as it will be too many, thinking about arming and disarming. 2) having too many broken robots by the time the final show comes around.

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Sooo, every FW turns up for a single fight? That's not really encouragement to stick around & learn. Now if that happened with two white boards I'd probably consider it worth it.

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Originally Posted by geeza

1) having every FW in all the fights as it will be too many, thinking about arming and disarming

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Logistical nightmare but I will point out loading &arming 10 FWs still, on the whole, quicker than loading 2 heavys. Disarming is more hassle of course.

While we're having the spinner discussion, exactly what's stopping me from turning up with an angle grinder, again? It's not that destructive & looks great when pushed against metal.

No Ceri I do not mean each robot will only get one fight, they will have 3 as is usual.

shame about the spinner rules but i would build one and turn the weapon down so all it could do is flip something or hit another 6 feet the other way (a vertical bar spinner is what i had in mind).

I think a part of the box or flipper arguement is the ability to self-right. design a box (invertable) or flipper and all you have to do is design the bot then the weapon (if its a flipper) as both have the built-in ability to get back on their wheels. Design something with an axe and you've got to design the bot, the weapon and then a way to get back onto your wheels.

If anything, ban self-righters! lol

Maybe drums should be unbanned? Cos they dont actually have that extremley OTT power than 360 and LS4, they at
the most, cause sparks, little damage to be cleaned up and flip bots around, which would give a bit more entertaiment
to the fights.

I think people have already established that spinners are not an option

Plus, having your robot destroyed at every event would make a lot of people (most probably those with flippers) turn back to the boxes

I find the dragon con robots to be interesting due to the 1/4 inch bars bolted to the stage and slow spinners (20 feet/s tip speed) requiring innovation to get around.

Also, they have no polycarbonate box (Insane)

Matilda had a disc fitted for Guildford, it had rubber blocks as teeth, very lowpowered, a mag motor running on 12v, and didnt do much.

Ive since decided its having the blades put back on but keeping it at low speed, thought process is it will make robots fly rather than damage them !

I actually think there is a place for spinners, and have done for a while, they just need to be reduced. Its something I am looking at !

i think the theatrical side of robots are missing in FW i.e. HW veloceripper, mighty mouse, steg o saw us and Terror Turtle what i'm trying to say is robots that look like their namesakes.

i have an uninspiring wedge robot called tuff luck and i dont mind the house robots attacking it, when Major Damage or Battle Axe hits it with their hammers it looks like it is being pulverized. If it's immobile it's fair game for the house robots cheap components cheap to repair. Most people have more than 1 robot.
so if you have a boring box and most of the time they'r built out of hardox and have drill motors, your fair game for the house robots.

I think the rule should be a bit like rw did... If your robot isn't entertaining the hOuse robots can make it entertaining by attacking it.

:-)

Yeh, I don't mind if robots attack Bruiser, basically the only think that coluld break on it is it's Motors, so it's like £10 for a new one...

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Originally Posted by roamingrobots

I think the rule should be a bit like rw did... If your robot isn't entertaining the hOuse robots can make it entertaining by attacking it.

:-)

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What if the robot is entertaining but the driver isn't? Can we have the house robots attacking boring people?

Attack the boring people? ive got a better idea for a main event

Roboteer takes on a robot

I can see it now

Shane Swan VS Major Damage

MD wouldnt stand a chance mate :angry:

haven read the whole topic :proud: but let us use spinners if ur banning non-weapons! why are feather spinners banned? :?

they are not banned compleatly, just in arena that can't handle them its a safety thing

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Originally Posted by roamingrobots

Matilda had a disc fitted for Guildford, it had rubber blocks as teeth, very lowpowered, a mag motor running on 12v, and didnt do much.

Ive since decided its having the blades put back on but keeping it at low speed, thought process is it will make robots fly rather than damage them !

I actually think there is a place for spinners, and have done for a while, they just need to be reduced. Its something I am looking at !

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Any time scale on the potential spinner rule?

As i said before, if somehow current spinners were allowed, then robots would get alot more damage and would mean even more boxes!

We'll have ago at changing the format at Kidderminster and see how that goes.

i think we could un-ban drum spinners since they give robots a good chuck yet dont do the same damage as the horizontal or vertical disk/bar spinner

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Originally Posted by mattsdragons

i think we could un-ban drum spinners since they give robots a good chuck yet dont do the same damage as the horizontal or vertical disk/bar spinner

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Originally Posted by blazerbotics

As i said before, if somehow current spinners were allowed, then robots would get alot more damage and would mean even more boxes!

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Been a while since I've been on here and I'm too lazy to read all the way through this topic. Skimmed it somewhat.

Interesting fights come from interesting weapons. This site is called FIGHTING robots, the original tv series was called robot WARS, the american version was called BATTLEbots.

Bring back the carnage, bring back the fighting. Scrap non weapon bots. Every bot should have a weapon.

if this fra forum had a like button, i would like your comment garry. we build FIGHTING robots, and what is associated with fighting... DAMAGE!

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Originally Posted by typhoon_driver

Been a while since I've been on here and I'm too lazy to read all the way through this topic. Skimmed it somewhat.

Interesting fights come from interesting weapons. This site is called FIGHTING robots, the original tv series was called robot WARS, the american version was called BATTLEbots.

Bring back the carnage, bring back the fighting. Scrap non weapon bots. Every bot should have a weapon.

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I quite agree with this.

This rule comes in, it will kill the featherweight class