As above really, do you need to get under people or do you reckon literally a fast invertable brick could be successful?
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As above really, do you need to get under people or do you reckon literally a fast invertable brick could be successful?
With total reliability and some great driving, sure. But without a wedge of some nature it'll be hard to do much. Without a wedge the only way you can push another machine is by putting more power down, which doesn't happen often, because pretty much all machines these days have more power than grip. All a scoop or wedge needs to do is lift the opponent's wheels 1mm off the ground and you have total control over them. It needn't be big or define the shape of the bot, forks or "wedgelets" can do the job.
Another reason for needing one is any machine that does have a ground scraping front will 9/10 times get the better of you!
Yeah I was thinking that. I fancy a go at the FW Champs next year but can't build anything fancy. Was thinking of building something solid out a pre-welded box (cash tin, grass clipping box, catering pan etc). I suppose all I'd have to do is bolt a lip on one side.
TBH from my experience this year you're going to need something tougher than the things you mentioned for a shell. Any spinner worth it's salt can easily slice through 4mm Hardox and barely slow down and if you look at the damage that 720 did to Hardwired 2 which was in places around 6mm Hardox you'll see what i mean. Best thing to do IMO would be a thick Hdpe body with hardox or something similar at the front as a scoop, Hdpe is cheap and even the 15mm stuff i used this year held up remarkably well to Drumroll, Mr Mangle and Binky, as well as being chucked into the Gladiator fight at the end of the champs against about 4 or 5 really powerful spinners.
I'd be interested to see the damage they've done to 6mm hardox. Need to have a rethink lol.
Was your HDPE body screwed together or drilled and bolted with brackets? Any help on surviving the champs appreciated!
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Spinners. Much afraid. Entire right hand side is bent in, quite hefty chunks out of everything. Mostly on the weld lines, admittedly, but you'll always get that with Hardox because of the heat treatment and stuff. All of that is on the 6.4 too, the 3.2 weirdly didn't take much damage at all, though it's harder to get at than the 6.4 with how the design is...
That picture at the end doesn't do the damage justice either, it's a lot worse than it looks, tough to see on photos but very visible when you look at it!
To be honest, I've been chatting with people about this, it actually seems better to use HDPE and be able to repair it, than all the hardox like I did. It can take the shocks very well and it's cheap/easy to replace. Hatchet, Loki, Rango, Defector - all used HDPE, and stood up to an awful lot of punishment. It is a case of designing well though, used poorly HDPE is a really bad armour. Used well, it's probably one of the best armours you can have. Hardox frame, HDPE armour might be a good way to go, something I'm looking at for my new one!
Thanks for the pictures Matt, this has really really had an effect on how I'm planning to build in the future.
Genuinely scary!
Going back to 2010, Tiny Toon, a 2WD hardox machine with no weapons besides a wedge, drove its way to victory. It can be done but its quite rare. There is no reason you can't build one though, even if the chances of winning are slim.
So you know how powerful some machines are, Binky has cut through 10mm of mild steel in practice and 8mm of mild in the arena. Conker 3 bent a 10mm Hardox bar and twisted the whole chassis of a welded unibody machine made from 6mm+ mild steel.
Also, never use screws in a robot. They are far to thin and they can easily be snapped. Use bolts. Either thread the plastic or use brass inserts.
It is, but it's really only cosmetic thankfully. If this were HDPE though, I'd be able to just unbolt and stick another panel on, I'd highly recommend that personally!
Another couple I forgot, Endeavour and Richochet - the very definition of bricks! Steel has it's place, as do the rest of the materials, but given how much damage was done to Hardox this year, I'm doubting it'll hold it's effectiveness for long... Besides, you can get like 20mm HDPE for the same weight as 4mm Hardox or something. Course, you can't use HDPE for everything, but it's a great armour for pushers.
It depends what you want though, my hardox worked really nicely at being an anti spinner (watch my fight with NST, I sent it all over the shop before it clipped my link) since it's a hard surface to hit, but it's tougher to repair by very nature. Smart design is the best defence against spinners though, my sloped sides saved me no end of times!
Wood would be another useful material in this case. Easy to repair and a nightmare for spinners to get through or damage in the thicknesses you could put on a robot (think 2 inch all around the outside)
Adding to Alex's post top, it is very doable but you've got to consider it's all about driving, you need to make up for the weapon deficiency in every other aspect - speed, control, power, armour...
I'm planning to upgrade the new HW2 into something more than just a pusher, but it's only going to be as an aid to the pushing ability, partly because I want an active weapon, but mostly because to have a successful pusher, you need to be a half decent driver, which I'm definitely not with robots!
Oh wow I can do wood! Grandad is a scultpor so I have endless supplies of 12mm ply and 2x2. So do you reckon a wooden brick with a steel wedge bolted on the front? I could make a few spare wedges?
HDPE inner chassis, wood outer armour and steel wedge, 4WD with 4 drills... I bet that'd be a very tough little machine! Not sure I'd go for an all wood machine in full competition, since it does splinter but that sounds a great idea on the whole. Makes repairs easier too with a bolt on portion of wooden armour instead of having to take apart your chassis. Especially with spinners being what they are now, I'm not sure I'd trust wood on it's own...
When Block of Wood and Johnny 2x4 entered the champs how did they do?
Usually came out in pieces from memory but they were mostly wood. Make the substructure from steel and strap 2 inch wood all around and you should have a decent go at it.
A lot of good advice going around, the thing is with spinners is that they are now so powerful it's not enough to have just a complete Hardox brick, it's better to use Hdpe/wood or something similar as a bolted together chassis that you can easily remove and replace a damaged panel from. As tough as Hardwired 2 was a massive hit from 720 basically wrote the chassis off, whereas Loki took a huge amount of punishment and managed to still come 2nd in the annihilator.
To answer your question as well, Hatchet was end tapped with high tensile m6 bolts ( 50mm long if i remember right) and that fought a dangerous spinner in every qualifying fight and took no significant structural damage, the Hdpe got ground away and torn up but the overall chassis is still being used. I used some 3mm aluminium angle brackets around the back corners to reinforce as well, took a huge hit from Drumroll which threw Hatchet a good 2 feet in the air and upside down and the end tapped corner didn't budge.
At this year champs Endeavour had thick wooden blocks on the sides to fight spinners and whilst they got torn up the actual chassis of the machine took no damage that i could see, might be something you could look at.
Got some pics of the damage to Hatchet after my 2nd fight with Binky, it looks quite bad but that chassis is still being used quite happily. https://scontent-b-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/...63668010_n.jpghttps://scontent-b-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/...00309048_n.jpg
Its not that simple. The machine came out of every fight in one piece. But since I have been the one who is repairing and upgrading its armour I have to say that its not the machine it came to the champs as. None of the machine is square anymore. Every original bulkhead is twisted. The whole machine is on slant from left to right. The chain that once ran straight is now at a slight angle.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsam
I would suggest a core metal structure of welded steel (Box or sheet) with thick HDPE outer armour which is attached by countersunk M8 or M10 bolts and can be easily replaced. So long as the core remains undamaged then you will be good to go for many, many fights.
OK that's great thanks. Thinking about getting a local machine shop to weld me something up. Going to go and inquire this week about monies lol.
As Matt said, Defectors one of the robots built mainly out of HDPE (with an Ali frame).
Defector had 13 fights in total, and fought against a few spinners (Rango, 720, Galactus, Massacre, and LS4). Ill show you how it fared throughout the tournament.
Before Fighting
https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...32458064_n.jpg
After 4 fights (including LS4)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...44783904_n.jpg
After 7 fights (including 720)
https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...72339062_n.jpg
After 13 fights (including Rango)
https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...70984455_n.jpg
It looks like its in a very bad state now, but the armour itself is in good shape. However the joins was what let it down, and it doesnt have replaceable armour. The welds had got busted by the end, and alot of the threads for the bolts aswell.
However if you make a robot with "Throw away armour" as it where, it would be a very good option as the frame should stay in good condition. You then just place new (and cheap) armour onto where the old got damaged from.
That said, id recommend a metal scoop, purely out of sharpness and its ability to stay sharp through a fight.
Should also state, if id needed to of fought again - Defector was still in a fully working condition.
Oh god really i had no idea it was so bad, having said that i hadn't taken it fully apart since the champs. Whilst it may be the case that the whole chassis is now twisted IMO the chassis could still have been used in that condition, i still think it's a testament to Hdpe to take that amount of damage and still be in one piece albeit a little worse for wear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventorizon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfie489
Fully working yet still needed to be sent to Belgium for repairs?
You will find alot of robots which get that far in competition either need upgrades or general repairs, as doing that many fights in the competition can really take it out of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by harry hills
Defector was still fully mobile at the end of its last fight. All that happened was a bolt came out and it got stuck on it, once freed it worked perfectly still. Infact, by the end of its last fight it could still do Figure of 8's or whatever was required to prove mobility, yet its opponent had lost steering. All i needed to do to fight again would be to bolt the base back on and charge the batteries.
It got sent to Belgium to have some of the welds redone (which i can not do), and also primarily to be redesigned for next years competition, with a new flipper and new tires (for which i have undamaged orgionals).
So yeh - Fully working
In answer to can a brick be successful... from experience? No. Not without a wedge. I've run Ricochet without a wedge and despite having a 2mm clearance as soon as it hit something slanted it would ride up and be useless. With the wedge however, it made the top 18 this year. HDPE sides are 30mm thick and completely unbreakable. Lid is only 8mm and suffered greatly at the hand of LH3, but even with the total over the top 6 motors and 2kg of Hardox at each end it was 12.9kg at the champs. If the clearance were increased I could easily fit a 10mm lid in weight. What you really want is strong construction and HDPE to take the shock and dissipate some of it before it reaches the rest of the robot, lowering the overall impact. Hardened steels such as Hardox are no longer safe against some of the spinners, and are incredibly difficult to bend back.
Joining the convo a bit late in the day, but anyway, going Back to:
Errrr no, I think Endeavour can be shown as a testimony to that. Yes, if you use something like 2 screws to hold armour on then you are definitely going to run into problems. In Endeavour though, we used somewhere between 100-125 (possibly more) M4 screws to hold the whole thing together. I think its something like 26 screws alone to hold one motor down. At the champs last year (2013) we took 2 major hits on the side armour and all we got was a bit of a graze, no "panel ripping off" which is what you seem to be describing. Screws are definitely strong if used properly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eventorizon
Would definitely agree with this, especially if the wood is used like spinner food! If you use really thick wood on top of HDPE or hardox etc, the spinner is unlikely to get through all the wood and even if it does you still have your "proper" armour to protect yourself anyway. Also the fact the wood splinters means that you are unlikely to get the "hit and flip" action that many verticals try to achieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoon_driver
Overall, yes bricks can definitely be successful, particularly in events like the Annihilator and the newly founded Gladiator Cup. It doesn't matter if you have the most destructive bot on the planet, if it doesn't run reliably, your never going to get anywhere :)
Defector is seriously impressive, as is Richochet (fought against you at Doncaster and got battered). I understand now about the need for replacement bodywork. My main thought was that to get through the rounds you simply need to keep getting back in the arena with a running machine half the time.
Does anyone have any thoughts on using blades to deflect spinners? Could this be a viable way to overcome them?
Not really sure what you mean by blades but the best way to deflect spinner IMO is to angle your body like Matt did with Hardwired, if you watch his fight with NST you'll see how effective the design was at deflecting NST's bar.
We are using it anyway. Its still fine. Just not straight. heheQuote:
Originally Posted by mrsam
the sloped scruffy 2 did quite well at deflecting spinners probably would have done better if it was lower to the ground
Yes 100+ screws were needed to make it effective. Or you could use 20 bolts with washers. Just my view after NST ripped Conker 1 apart and that was held together with around 16-20 screws per pannel running perpendicular to one another in pairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by SamO
Defector was originally Hanibalito 4. (May have spelt that wrong) It's design was proven over years in other machines.
Yeah just thought about making something like a double sided snow plough to deflect the energy rather than try and absorb it.
It's the spinners that have come on leaps and bounds, and no one has any real answer to it. With everyone building spinners I feel the need to champion the low tech approach lol.
I say the answer is Minimoth ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by daveimi
Using screws to hold Hdpe together didn't work for me, it obviously works for Endeavour but to me it just didn't feel strong enough and i ended up with a fair few breaking off when i was tightening them which left bits of screw stuck in the chassis. Besides a pack of 20 high tensile bolts is like £4.00 so i can't see a reason not to use them.
Meh, I guess just all comes down to build technique and doing would you feel comfortable doing...
I find screws (talking wood screws) hold into HDPE very well. Like in wood they weaken if taken out and in several times. For structural plastic-plastic joins that need to come apart I like barrelnuts, and experiments with custom threaded inserts seem good. Both using M6. Might try some smaller ones (M8 OD and M4 ID) soon.
HardWired 2 Evo will ;) Nothing's ever immune though, no robot is ever safely counted out as the loser either - look at HardWired II for example, took a win against Ironside and Binky by pure fluke alone. The best way to combat spinners as far as I see it is to be able to control them, soon as you can push them about and keep away from the spinning device, they're a lot less scary. Even less so if you can force it to stop. Take good armour and ability to control the fight, and you'll have the best shot at beating the spinners. I think my plans for Hardwired 2 Evo will fill that brief, but it's all up in the air at the minute. And it inevitably won't, either in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by daveimi
Low tech is a good way to go though, low tech and cheap means much easier repairs... if you were to concentrate your electronics in a small central box, then make a few layers of wooden armour with a good enough air gap you'll maybe only ever need to replace the armour. Which is easily done because it's cheaper than the equivalent.
The only other school of thought is taking a solid brick of a machine (hardox etc) and adding disposable armour like hdpe to soften impacts and therefore less chance of your structure getting damaged. Both have been used to good effect, but as said before good construction is vital, really. Definitely use angled steel pieces to keep your structure at the corners, and try not to have any 90 degree ones though that is tough with this sort of construction... as for keeping it together, high tensile bolts are a good bet, woodscrews work OK too but I'd guess it all comes down to how and where you use them... Well thought out design should solve those problems though! If you go through with a build, keep updating your thread on it and I'm sure people will be more than happy to advise as you go!
For screwing directly into plastic I'm a fan of "plastite" screws. ( http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastite-screws/=sdaz58 )
The other option that works pretty well is "nutstrip" ( http://www.fingertechrobotics.com/pr...?prod=NutStrip ) as you just have to match the hole pattern on whatever you're bolting together and you can do all of your panels quickly as 2d profiles which means you can quickly make spares and change them out when they get damaged.
just a thought from a novice at building bots....what about doing propper dovetail joints and glued and screwed to hold hdpe together
Dovetail joints *could* work i guess but tbh just having some sort of bracing for your corners ( steel/aluminium angle ) seems to work very well as it prevents the joint from being pulled apart, plus the fact if you have to replace multiple panels on the fly making new Dovetail joints would just take too long unless you brought infinite spares. I wouldn't recommend using glue though, if nothing else it makes it difficult to replace a damaged panel because you'd have to try and yank your chassis apart.